What's going on here? Help?

oilhammer

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
That smooth idle compensation is not only less than ideal, it is really strange that all four are the same +/-.

A healthy ALH will typically have them all 4 +/- less than 1.00. I think the MAX it can be is +/-2.99.
 
Geordi

Geordi

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The Vag group information thread suggested that they could be from -2 to +2, but didn't offer any other information. What does it say to you though? I'm really scratching my head here, I have no idea where to look next.
 
Vince Waldon

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stamp11127

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Anytime you pull caps off it is a good idea to plasti gauge the clearances - dry of course. When installing the new bearings, check clearances on those also. You can't check clearances by just looking at them.
Also check the cylinder bore for any evidence of gauling in the walls from running low on oil.
I would expect a dead cylinder for the shaking. You can check for it by shooting the runners on the exhaust manifold with an ir temp gun. The cooler one will be guy to look at.

And I hope you did torque everything to spec when putting it back together.
 
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naturist

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The video does appear to be a 4 cylinder engine running on only 3. IR gun on the exhaust manifold to sniff out who's not firing? Good Luck, Geordi. Hope you get it sorted soon. That Chevy can't be as economical to drive around the country.
 
Geordi

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Vince, I thought Canadians were nice and friendly. Your post seems downright snotty about the compression test. I wasn't against doing one, I wasn't ABLE to do one until I got the injectors back and installed which only happened today.

Anyway, here are the numbers - Now someone please explain what this means, OTHER than it is dead. That part I gathered.

100/480/460/460.

I just want some idea if this is repairable or even worth the effort, or just pull the block and replace it and let someone else have the fun.

Internal engine rebuilding is not something I am equipped to do right now, unless it is fairly fast / easy. It is a matter of a crappy homeowner's association, I'm sure you understand. I'm going to have enough issues with them about trying to swap the engine in the driveway.
 
Ol'Rattler

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Disconnecting the charge air pipe would probably not cause smoke because the Manifold Air Pressure sensor would sense no boost and cut fueling.

On my last emission test, the max for opacity was something like 47 and my car registered IIRC 74. I unplugged the Map sensor and the opacity went to 9. They didn't care that the MIL light was on so I passed.

I would agree that a compression test would be a good idea. If your engine isn't leaking oil, it may be drinking it from a failing turbo seal and caused a hydro lock.

Before you tore the lower end apart, did you check oil pressure with a direct reading gauge?
 
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whitedog

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Yo have something that is leaking compression - duh, you knew that. But is it the top end or the bottom end. I don't know for sure, but I know the head would need to come off to find out.
 
Ol'Rattler

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Geordi said:
Anyway, here are the numbers - Now someone please explain what this means, OTHER than it is dead. That part I gathered.

100/480/460/460.

Internal engine rebuilding is not something I am equipped to do right now, unless it is fairly fast / easy. It is a matter of a crappy homeowner's association, I'm sure you understand. I'm going to have enough issues with them about trying to swap the engine in the driveway.
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2 possible causes for low compression. a trashed cam or a bent con rod from a hydro lock because the engine is drinking it's own oil from a failing turbo seal.

IDKW anyone would live in a neighborhood with a home owners association.

With them dictating how tall your grass can be, what colors you can paint your house and what you can park in your driveway, I would say no thank you.

My sister is behind on her dues/fines etc by $2000+ and the HOA Natzi's have put a lean on her house. So I guess they would foreclose on her house and sell it, and maybe pay her the difference between the equity in her house and what the HOA is owed including legal fees and tell her that she needs to go live under a bridge.
 
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whitedog

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Bent or burnt valves, injector burnt a hole in a piston, FOD in that cylinder scored the cylinder, stuck or broken rings. That's off the top of my head. I could think of more in the shower.
 
Geordi

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Ok, now we are getting somewhere... Maybe.

Trashed cam: I don't know how, I suppose it is somehow possible, but it doesn't really fit the scenario. When I inspected it, it looked great. No scoring or scratches at all, all the lifter caps were mirror smooth and no spiderwebbing. I think that also rules out anything with the valves.

Valves: Unless they were oil cooled, I don't think they are involved either.

Injector burned a piston: Maybe? They said the injectors nozzles weren't in great shape, but not that they were splattering everywhere.

Cylinder object: I don't think so, it has never made any unhappy noises that I've heard.

Stuck or broken rings: Maybe? But now it has a tapping sound, on the Jeep CRD, I have experience with a similar type of tapping that has resulted in the discovery of rod bearings missing in action. These rod bearings are new, so I'm inclined to think they are OK (I've only idled it or brought it up to 2k no-load to check the oil pressure) and they have less than 5 minutes idling on them. The rocking / poor performance did not change with new rod bearings OR new injector nozzles and calibrations, so I am inclined to look elsewhere.

The rings are a potential for the loss of compression after running low on oil, but I don't know about the noise now. Wrist pin? How is the top of the piston lubricated? Where are the potential wear points from low oil? That seems the most likely to me.
 
jokila

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Geordi said:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere... Maybe.

Trashed cam: I don't know how, I suppose it is somehow possible, but it doesn't really fit the scenario. When I inspected it, it looked great. No scoring or scratches at all, all the lifter caps were mirror smooth and no spiderwebbing. I think that also rules out anything with the valves.

Valves: Unless they were oil cooled, I don't think they are involved either.

Injector burned a piston: Maybe? They said the injectors nozzles weren't in great shape, but not that they were splattering everywhere.

Cylinder object: I don't think so, it has never made any unhappy noises that I've heard.

Stuck or broken rings: Maybe? But now it has a tapping sound, on the Jeep CRD, I have experience with a similar type of tapping that has resulted in the discovery of rod bearings missing in action. These rod bearings are new, so I'm inclined to think they are OK (I've only idled it or brought it up to 2k no-load to check the oil pressure) and they have less than 5 minutes idling on them. The rocking / poor performance did not change with new rod bearings OR new injector nozzles and calibrations, so I am inclined to look elsewhere.

The rings are a potential for the loss of compression after running low on oil, but I don't know about the noise now. Wrist pin? How is the top of the piston lubricated? Where are the potential wear points from low oil? That seems the most likely to me.
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You said the valves not involved. How did you logically rule that out? A burnt valve can certainly cause a leak and thereby low compression. Did you perform a leak down test? The cylinder can make a tapping noise from the overfueling of a broken injector tip. It also means you would see excessive unburned fuel out the exhaust.

I think you need to pull the head off.
 
Geordi

Geordi

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jokila said:
You said the valves not involved. How did you logically rule that out? A burnt valve can certainly cause a leak and thereby low compression. Did you perform a leak down test? The cylinder can make a tapping noise from the overfueling of a broken injector tip. It also means you would see excessive unburned fuel out the exhaust.
I think you need to pull the head off.
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Well, here we are back again. I'm posting this update because I figure it might help someone else to know what happened and maybe I might discover my options are better than I thought for fixing this.

The #1 cylinder is melted a little around the edges. Based on what I have discovered, I think the engine may have started leaking the oil possibly through the rear main seal, the back of the engine was soaked with oil everywhere, but no obvious source. There was more on the RMS and bottom of the transmission bellhousing however, it did seem to be coming more from that end of the engine.

The turbo seems solid and will be getting transferred to the replacement engine for the time being. The cylinder head looks great, the valves are all where they should be and I wouldn't hesitate to put this head back in service.

The injectors (recently re-worked) are now in the replacement engine along with the pump, and it was obvious from when I drove the car into the garage (Yay, no more effing with the HOA, and I can work in peace!) that the #1 cylinder wasn't firing at all. The newly-reworked injectors 2-4 had fresh carbon on the tips, while the #1 is still shiny chrome. But that tapping noise was also gone, so I suspect it had just been poor combustion in that #1 cylinder.

I will be finishing the motor swap this weekend, then the decision time starts about the old motor. Can just one piston be swapped? Is it even worth it? The engine has 360k miles on it, but the compression on the other cylinders seemed great at 480 and 460 460. Is there any way to re-check the compression without getting another starter from a junkyard? (there's no transmission on that engine obviously)

I've got a nearly-complete motor that would need some TLC and parts, and I wouldn't mind having a spare motor just in case.
 
jokila

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Geordi said:
Well, here we are back again. I'm posting this update because I figure it might help someone else to know what happened and maybe I might discover my options are better than I thought for fixing this.
The #1 cylinder is melted a little around the edges. Based on what I have discovered, I think the engine may have started leaking the oil possibly through the rear main seal, the back of the engine was soaked with oil everywhere, but no obvious source. There was more on the RMS and bottom of the transmission bellhousing however, it did seem to be coming more from that end of the engine.
The turbo seems solid and will be getting transferred to the replacement engine for the time being. The cylinder head looks great, the valves are all where they should be and I wouldn't hesitate to put this head back in service.
The injectors (recently re-worked) are now in the replacement engine along with the pump, and it was obvious from when I drove the car into the garage (Yay, no more effing with the HOA, and I can work in peace!) that the #1 cylinder wasn't firing at all. The newly-reworked injectors 2-4 had fresh carbon on the tips, while the #1 is still shiny chrome. But that tapping noise was also gone, so I suspect it had just been poor combustion in that #1 cylinder.
I will be finishing the motor swap this weekend, then the decision time starts about the old motor. Can just one piston be swapped? Is it even worth it? The engine has 360k miles on it, but the compression on the other cylinders seemed great at 480 and 460 460. Is there any way to re-check the compression without getting another starter from a junkyard? (there's no transmission on that engine obviously)
I've got a nearly-complete motor that would need some TLC and parts, and I wouldn't mind having a spare motor just in case.
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Back of the engine soaked with oil is from either a leaky valve cover and/or vacuum pump seal. Many of us have that problem with the higher mileage engines. It can dribble down and appear that it's coming from the main seal.

The pistons (including the rods) are balanced in pairs so you probably can as long as it weighs in with its counterpart. YOu would have to mic the cylinder and if it's in spec you could get away with honing and new rings. I would personally rehone all cylinders and refresh the rings.
 
W

whitedog

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Lifters... Followers.... Hydraulic Lash Adjuster.... Same thing. There is a part between the cam and the valve stem.
 
Geordi

Geordi

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Ok, I'll bite. How do the caps get oil pressure, if they spend their life rotating in their bore as the cam spins above them?

On the Jeep CRD with the VM Motori engine, the lifter is a stationary part that oil pressure pumps up, which raises that end of a rocker arm. The middle is under the cam and the opposite end is on the spring loaded valve stem.

My understanding of the cam system in the ALH was that the cap was between the cam and the valve stem, and held in place by a spring underneath, not oil pressure?
 
D

D24T

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How do the caps get oil pressure, if they spend their life rotating in their bore as the cam spins above them?
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Through a groove and a little hole in the side (this is from a different engine):

http://www.cvi-automotive.se/images/2.152495/valve-lifter-7900-b204b234-850sv70-5-cyl2-valve.jpeg

My understanding of the cam system in the ALH was that the cap was between the cam and the valve stem,
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True

held in place by a spring underneath, not oil pressure?
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Are you talking about taking up the clearance?
 
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