VW Dieselgate engineer sings like a canary: Entire design team was in on it

An article on a UK website:
VW Dieselgate engineer sings like a canary: Entire design team was in on it – not just a couple of bad apples. Techie admits conspiracy.

herbert68 said:

An article on a UK website:
VW Dieselgate engineer sings like a canary: Entire design team was in on it – not just a couple of bad apples. Techie admits conspiracy.

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As was upper management no doubt applying pressure as they always do, f*&%$#g the workers.

In a BIG company nothing goes without the Knowledge of Upper Management. Who resigned at VW.... UPPER Management!

All a shame. Think of the level of knowledge needed to conceive and implement the deceptive programming, then consider that the engineers weren't smart enough to hide their tracks under all conditions. Consider that our tiny diesels are such a small portion of vehicles on the road and that their total contribution to any real or postulated pollution problem is probably equivalent to me taking a wiz somewhere in a 100 acre corn field.

I see the problem as one of strict and thoughtless regulation compounded by an industry which tends to comply at bare minimum levels, or attempts to circumvent such entirely. Sometimes circumvention results in serious consequences. In this case (diesel pollution) there are possible health risks, but I suspect NOT much risk at all from our tiny diesels.

Wouldn't it have been so much better should VW have been able to be honest with regulators and to have been able to purchase an exception to regulations based on the number of TDI's on the road and their insignificant contribution to the pollution produced by fleets of larger and less regulated engines? Somehow it seems that common sense and reason have taken leave and that thoughtless bureaucracy has triumphed. What are we thinking?

nord said:

Wouldn't it have been so much better should VW have been able to be honest with regulators and to have been able to purchase an exception to regulations based on the number of TDI's on the road and their insignificant contribution to the pollution produced by fleets of larger and less regulated engines?

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I'm sure this would never have been given as an option and wouldn't any other manufacturer essentially do the same thing?

nord said:

Consider that our tiny diesels are such a small portion of vehicles on the road and that their total contribution to any real or postulated pollution problem is probably equivalent to me taking a wiz somewhere in a 100 acre corn field.

(snip)

Wouldn't it have been so much better should VW have been able to be honest with regulators and to have been able to purchase an exception to regulations based on the number of TDI's on the road and their insignificant contribution to the pollution produced by fleets of larger and less regulated engines? Somehow it seems that common sense and reason have taken leave and that thoughtless bureaucracy has triumphed. What are we thinking?

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Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. Every time I'm stuck behind a <redacted> '96 Aerostar kicking out plumes of blue smoke, or some kid rollin' coal, etc etc I can't see how my car is a problem if they're not.

I do believe emissions are an issue, but the lack of enforcement on a significant portion of polluting vehicles (especially the older ones) is a far larger issue than the evil geniuses at VW.

Mr. Furious said:

Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. Every time I'm stuck behind a <redacted> '96 Aerostar kicking out plumes of blue smoke, or some kid rollin' coal, etc etc I can't see how my car is a problem if they're not.
I do believe emissions are an issue, but the lack of enforcement on a significant portion of polluting vehicles (especially the older ones) is a far larger issue than the evil geniuses at VW.

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I hear ya. I unfortunately got behind several late 60's early 70s cars going to a car show and the smell of ultra rich gasoline exhaust coming into the cabin of my passat made my eyes water. Putting the ac on recirculation/max helped but it didn't relent until our paths seperated.

dbias said:

I hear ya. I unfortunately got behind several late 60's early 70s cars going to a car show and the smell of ultra rich gasoline exhaust coming into the cabin of my passat made my eyes water. Putting the ac on recirculation/max helped but it didn't relent until our paths seperated.

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Well, lets put things in context. Being the owner of both a 2012 TDI Passat and a 1969 car, I can testify that the environmental regulations forced in the 70s worked out for the better, even when they cursed the auto industry in the mid-late 70s with low power and unreliability due (in part) to the new emmision equipment evolution process (i.e. sealed gas tanks, charcoal canisters, pellet-filled catalytic converters, smog pumps etc...). When I drive the old car, not only the cars behind me breathe unburned gas, the people inside my car also ends smelling like gas for a while! (And, about other advantages of the emission control laws, I guess people living in LA can attest how good life is without smog!)

So, even when it bothers me that the car I paid and like is now described as an "unicorn" and that I might need to sell it, or fix it (and I don't know how is going to behave after fixing it), and that I blame VW for cheating me into buying it, I don't think the thought that "we are few, so the pollution is low" is valid. How many few are enough to be important?. How much a company can cheat before being relevant?. Gas engine manufacturers found a way to reduce emissions in the 70s and 80s, they should (and will) find a way now. We might not like it, and might take more time (more expensive cars, or the replacement of diesels by electric), but they will find it.

By the way, electric cars full torque can be used from standstill, so they might feel like our old diesels...

Just without the range. Which is why I bought my TDI.

dbias said:

I hear ya. I unfortunately got behind several late 60's early 70s cars going to a car show and the smell of ultra rich gasoline exhaust coming into the cabin of my passat made my eyes water. Putting the ac on recirculation/max helped but it didn't relent until our paths seperated.

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One of the things I miss now living in an urban area, hot rods and old cars cruising around. That smell brings me back to when we would cruise in the various old cars my dad had while I was growing up. 57 Chevy, 67 Camaro and 68 Firebird... That, and going to car shows. Love that smell!

Mr. Furious said:

Yeah, that's the part that bugs me. Every time I'm stuck behind a <redacted> '96 Aerostar kicking out plumes of blue smoke, or some kid rollin' coal, etc etc I can't see how my car is a problem if they're not.
I do believe emissions are an issue, but the lack of enforcement on a significant portion of polluting vehicles (especially the older ones) is a far larger issue than the evil geniuses at VW.

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The main issue and what people fail to realize in this argument is that those cars you mention can all be fixed to a point where they only pollute within the range they were originally designed to and most likely within government limits at the time they were released. That is all you can reasonably expect.

The VW, as of now, it still can't be brought under the current limits.

I am no "greenie" but I agree that maybe there should be more control on the cars you mentioned but that is apparently up to individual states to decide.

dbias said:

I hear ya. I unfortunately got behind several late 60's early 70s cars going to a car show and the smell of ultra rich gasoline exhaust coming into the cabin of my passat made my eyes water. Putting the ac on recirculation/max helped but it didn't relent until our paths seperated.

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I'm sure we all understand that the emissions regulations at issue in Dieselgate don't apply to these vehicles, as they don't apply to off-road, racing, etc. Emissions standards, for better or worse, are not retroactive.

Rico567 said:

I'm sure we all understand that the emissions regulations at issue in Dieselgate don't apply to these vehicles, as they don't apply to off-road, racing, etc. Emissions standards, for better or worse, are not retroactive.

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+1

It is my understanding that by federal law the car should comply with the emission standards at the time the car was built, and (if you're very picky) to the configuration it had after leaving factory (so you can be spewing unburned gas and be ok, as that was the standard at the time...). That is good for avoiding retroactive liability to car companies. Still, changing the engine or the carb, camshaft, compression, etc... can bring you trouble if the car is registered as a daily driver (in theory, and probably in California, the car will require a pollution inspection, and won't pass unless it produces the same or less contamination).

However, (depending on the state I think), if it is registered as a Classic, Antique, Off Road, Etc... you don't even have to comply with that, but there might be some restrictions on the car use (i.e.: in TX a car registered as an "Antique" should be used only to drive to and from car events/shows, or for maintenance requirements). That will keep the contamination levels low enough.

Enforcement of these laws might be lax due to the love for cars in this country, but I wont count on it, so I wont drive/recommend driving an old modified car as a daily driver if it did not pass the emissions inspection, specially in California.

I will consider this as thread drifting, so I'll refrain to write more about this...

I didn't realize that there was anybody out there who didn't believe that everybody at VW knew what was going on with emissions. It's one of the reasons I got so frustrated with VW, because they tried to blame this on a rogue engineer. Puhleaze.

pparks1 said:

I didn't realize that there was anybody out there who didn't believe that everybody at VW knew what was going on with emissions. It's one of the reasons I got so frustrated with VW, because they tried to blame this on a rogue engineer. Puhleaze.

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You're joking, right? EVERYBODY?
There's obviously no way it was a single "rogue engineer", as no one person could have created such complex software. But "...everybody at VW..."?????

In my opinion the reason the cars today are the best ever for mileage and reliability is the pressure put on the manufacturers by the EPS and Safety regulations.
Without this driving force we would still be driving the same crappy cars of the late 60's with carburetors and road draft tubes.
We had some crappy cars along the way though while they figured out what they had to do.
The 70's cars were some of the worst of the lot.
A side effect of all of this is that the shade tree maintenance is almost a thing of the past, but all in all the cars are much more reliable and if maintained well seem to run forever.
200,000 mile is achievable for most of the lot today.

redbarron55 said:

The 70's cars were some of the worst of the lot...

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In fairness, the 70s was when the first emissions laws were enacted, and the manufacturers didn't seem to have a clue on how to meet the new requirements. Given time, they did come up with solutions that gave us drivability, power and cleaner exhaust. Compared to what we had before then, we now have powerful, safer and cleaner cars. I'll take an oldie for a fun occasional toy, but give me a modern vehicle any day.

I have great memories of my first car, 1963 Impala Super Sport. 327 with Corvette heads, 4 speed T-10, Hurst shifter. If I drove that car today I would consider it a terrible experience.

worst were late 80's carbureted rigs with vacuum variable venturi carburetors that would cause bucking and surging with lean spots all over the place causing stalling and hard restarts pre 1990 model Nissan hardbody trucks, lots of Toyota 20R and 22R had them as well as camerys and such. See them on fire often along the roads now days as the Ethanol fuel has ate the float seats out of them or raw fuel suddenly sprays out of the older non ethanol approved oem fuel lines.

jrm said:

worst were late 80's carbureted rigs with vacuum variable venturi carburetors that would cause bucking and surging with lean spots all over the place causing stalling and hard restarts pre 1990 model Nissan hardbody trucks, lots of Toyota 20R and 22R had them as well as camerys and such. See them on fire often along the roads now days as the Ethanol fuel has ate the float seats out of them or raw fuel suddenly sprays out of the older non ethanol approved oem fuel lines.

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Yikes. Sounds like the ethanol is actually doing those old beaters a favor.

I am not a computer programmer, but I do not think the cheating software is that complex for a programmer, the reason it took so long for it to be discovered, is that no one thought a big company like VW, can be this stupid and risk so much.

I won't be very surprised, if in fact only a handful of engineers were involved, especially if they were unable to design an engine that can meet the emission numbers, and miss out on a big bonus, or even keep their jobs in the father land.

What I do not get still, is how come BMW and Mercedes managed to accomplish what VW could not, or is it a matter of time before they too are exposed, perhaps their cheat is much more complex.

^^^I think the cheat was to achieve higher MPGs, wasn't it?

Well, everyone else used urea on every engine. VW tried to avoid that in the A3, Jetta and Golf. I think they kept with it on the urea engines because they had gotten away with it for so long. I'm quite sure they saved a tidy sum by not using urea and better catalysts in all models.

I doubt it will take much to make the urea equipped models compliant, and I also feel it will have little to no impact on power or MPG. Use more urea? Sure. They were trying to keep it to the scheduled service interval, not something that would need attention between services.

^^^compliance probably isn't as hard a problem as where to locate a 5-gal. tank. I speculated that they could easily use the spare tire well, and simply do what many manufacturers have done: eliminate the spare tire/hardware altogether, and equip the cars with air compressors and sealant goop......(which in my opinion is a major pain in the arse). Weight gain wouldn't be all that significant: 5 gal. liquid vs. spare tire/jack.

Interesting about the possibility of "no urea needed" push by VAG engineers. Of course, now we're seeing how well VAG did WITH the DEF design

shak911 said:

What I do not get still, is how come BMW and Mercedes managed to accomplish what VW could not, or is it a matter of time before they too are exposed, perhaps their cheat is much more complex.

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MB and BMW vehicles have a higher price tag than the VWs do, and they can afford to invest more money in emissions system in order to make their vehicles compliant. Compare the Chevy Cruze, which is compliant, but is also the price of a fully loaded Passat, while being about the size of a Jetta. They installed larger and more expensive emissions controls in order to be compliant, while Volkswagen opted to find a software work-around and keep the cost of the vehicles down.

The result is that Volkswagen had an unfair advantage in pricing, while Chevy was locked into building high-spec Cruzes in order to offset the additional cost of emissions controls and maintain perceived value. Cruze diesel sales were very low, while Volkswagen TDIs were flying off of the lots. Now VW gets to reap what they have been sowing for the past six years.

Another example is Mazda. They looked at VW and were convinced that they could build a competitive vehicle without using exhaust fluid. It turned out that they weren't actually able to do that, and they abandoned their Skyactiv D project because they couldn't be cost competitive with Volkswagen.

Very clear analysis, VeeDubTDI. I don't understand what "sewing" has to do with it, though. HAHAHA! (It's even easier to be a smarta$$ when I'm 1400 miles away from you!!!!)

Hah! Sowing.

Huh? Now you're talking about female German pigs?????

Don'tcha just love English? Dr. Seuss: "The tough cough as they plough the dough."

the bright side is that the fix shouldn't be to bad. I drove to town in cheat mode the other day- wasn't too off from normal. 1. unplug rear wheel sensor. 2. pump throttle 5 times as glow plugs warm. and your in cheat mode when you here the Ding with the stability control light on

jrm said:

the bright side is that the fix shouldn't be to bad. I drove to town in cheat mode the other day- wasn't too off from normal. 1. unplug rear wheel sensor. 2. pump throttle 5 times as glow plugs warm. and your in cheat mode when you here the Ding with the stability control light on

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I don't think that actually activates "cheat mode."