Sandhopper
Well-known member
Mine has dropped down to the average level for my 55k check. See what I get for the 60k change interval. Either way, not too worried a
About excessive wear at this point.
About excessive wear at this point.
High aluminum in oil analysis
- Thread starter Nativefx
- Start date
mountain-valleymotors
Vendor , w/Business number
This is from my most recent oil change. I have pulled a sample at every oil change (every 5,000 miles) so you can see the trend. I am not liking what I am seeing. The aluminum still doesn't concern me much but in this sample all the other wear metals are up significantly. I haven't changed anything in terms of the car or driving patterns. I have noticed a more pronounced turbo whine in the last couple thousand miles. I had the reflash done at this service when the oil was changed.
Aluminum 112
Chrome 7
Iron 88
Copper 23
Nickel 5
These are all double what the average has been for my car in previous samples. Something is changing and it doesn't look good.
Aluminum 112
Chrome 7
Iron 88
Copper 23
Nickel 5
These are all double what the average has been for my car in previous samples. Something is changing and it doesn't look good.
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detroitmike
Veteran Member
It should drop back down. I had same issue with higher metals around 20k. Keep calm and drive on.
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mountain-valleymotors
Vendor , w/Business number
I am not very concerned about the aluminum. What concerns me more is the sudden and drastic increase (almost doubling in one service interval) of other wear metals like Iron and Chromium.
tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
phlfly: In order to justify your statement, you'll need to post some UOAs with Mobil1 so we can compare it to Castrol.
Facts, please, not opinions.
Facts, please, not opinions.
mountain-valleymotors
Vendor , w/Business number
FWIW the oil in this last sample was Pentosin Super Perf III 507 spec oil and this car has never went beyond 6,000 miles on an oil change. It has received the dealer supplied Castrol Oil at the 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 mile services. It has gotten the Pentosin Oil referenced above at the 5,000, 15,000, and 25,000 mile services which I performed myself.
As you can see if you look at the history the Pentosin Oil does seem to carry a higher TBN longer than the Castrol.
As you can see if you look at the history the Pentosin Oil does seem to carry a higher TBN longer than the Castrol.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I wonder if alternating oils has anything at all to do with it? Probably not, but it's worth thinking about.
mountain-valleymotors
Vendor , w/Business number
The free dealer service has run out so it won't be getting anything but Pentosin from here on out.
dbias
Veteran Member
So you are in effect keeping your engine in cleaning mode twice as much as you should and never allow the protection of the additive packs to fully adhere to the internal parts and are wondering about wear metals showing up in a UOA?
With your oci you will always be showing higher than avg ppm.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I'm not oil expert, so I will defer to those who know more on the subject. I just have a question about oil change intervals. If the shorter than recommended interval is responsible to the higher wear metals, why would Blackstone recommend even shorter intervals as corrective action?
Perhaps I should wander over to BITOG and do some reading.
Perhaps I should wander over to BITOG and do some reading.
dbias
Veteran Member
See the problem is ZDDP number. As you know, diesel oil has more ZDDP. Well, our Passat has oil requirements, same as gasoline. So it's making engine wear faster. EPA pushed manufactures to "cheat" with oil, since study shows most owner are not going to keep cars more than 150,000 miles, and Europe is even less.
I think Mobil 1 is better oil, and protect better and clean better. Bob's oil website is very good info. i spent there for few years, when I was trying to get rid of the valve noise during start up. well, the Mobil 1 was better than any other oil I tried.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils-
I think Mobil 1 is better oil, and protect better and clean better. Bob's oil website is very good info. i spent there for few years, when I was trying to get rid of the valve noise during start up. well, the Mobil 1 was better than any other oil I tried.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28576/comparing-gasoline-diesel-engine-oils-
pparks1
Veteran Member
This was my exact thoughts when I read his post. It was my understanding that frequent oil changes can do more harm than good. New oil has detergents and such and they essentially scrub your parts until the detergents wear out and the oil adheres to the internal parts forming a protective barrier.
Posts which were enlightening to me from this very forum
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3267180&postcount=56
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2340534&postcount=27
I'd rather go longer on my OCI than shorter.
nord
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2010
- Location
- Southern Tier NY
- TDI
- All turned back to VW. Now a 2017 Hundai Tuscon. Not a single squalk in 10k miles.
I've been thinking on this... Where do all these metals come together in one place? It struck me that the answer has been right under our nose for quite some time. Actually it's very well covered in other threads.
I believe your turbo is possibly in failure mode. Iron shaft, bearings composed of who knows what, impeller or compressor blades of alloy, and an aluminum alloy housing. Everything is right there in one place.
Your turbo feeds the intake end of things and I'd bet high levels of metal will be found in the oil at the bottom of your Intercooler. Combined with intake air and as the result of blowby the metals will find their way to the bottom end. Your oil return line from the turbo will handily return iron and bearing material to the oil pan. In combination you'll have a bouquet of metal contamination in your oil.
I therefore disagree with shortened oil change intervals. If I'm correct and your turbo is on the verge of failure, then all you're doing is masking a problem by thinking engine problems when the engine is very likely still healthy.
Instead of changing the oil and praying I'd be dropping that turbo and have a look. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if you find that the turbo vanes have kissed the housing ever so slightly. If I'm on target you need to know no more than this. The biggest question remaining will be whether oil has migrated into the exhaust system.
Good luck on this one. As I previously said, I don't think "wait and see" is a good policy in this case. Too many metals that shouldn't be together and the chrome causes me even further worry. I agree about the rings and have concern that metal migration from the intake air may be causing the rings and cylinders excess wear.
I believe your turbo is possibly in failure mode. Iron shaft, bearings composed of who knows what, impeller or compressor blades of alloy, and an aluminum alloy housing. Everything is right there in one place.
Your turbo feeds the intake end of things and I'd bet high levels of metal will be found in the oil at the bottom of your Intercooler. Combined with intake air and as the result of blowby the metals will find their way to the bottom end. Your oil return line from the turbo will handily return iron and bearing material to the oil pan. In combination you'll have a bouquet of metal contamination in your oil.
I therefore disagree with shortened oil change intervals. If I'm correct and your turbo is on the verge of failure, then all you're doing is masking a problem by thinking engine problems when the engine is very likely still healthy.
Instead of changing the oil and praying I'd be dropping that turbo and have a look. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if you find that the turbo vanes have kissed the housing ever so slightly. If I'm on target you need to know no more than this. The biggest question remaining will be whether oil has migrated into the exhaust system.
Good luck on this one. As I previously said, I don't think "wait and see" is a good policy in this case. Too many metals that shouldn't be together and the chrome causes me even further worry. I agree about the rings and have concern that metal migration from the intake air may be causing the rings and cylinders excess wear.
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pedorro
Veteran Member
40K UOA for 2012 6MT
Here's the UOA for my 40K oil change for another data point.
Here's the UOA for my 40K oil change for another data point.
Mechnurse
Veteran Member
2015 First UOA CASTROL EDGE 5w-30
MI/HR on oil 10479
Aluminum- 6
Chromium- 2
Iron- 47
Copper- 20
Lead- 1
Tin-0
Molybdenum-14
Nickel-3
Manganese-9
Silver-0
Titanium-1
Potassium-6
Boron-21
Silicon-20
Sodium-4
Calcium-1551
Magnesium-9
Phosphorus-766
Zinc-921
Barium-0
SUS Viscosity @210F-60.4
cSt Viscosity @100C-10.33
Flashpoint in F- 430
Fuel % <0.5
Antifreeze % 0
Water % 0
Insolubles % 0.1
TBN 4.6
MI/HR on oil 10479
Aluminum- 6
Chromium- 2
Iron- 47
Copper- 20
Lead- 1
Tin-0
Molybdenum-14
Nickel-3
Manganese-9
Silver-0
Titanium-1
Potassium-6
Boron-21
Silicon-20
Sodium-4
Calcium-1551
Magnesium-9
Phosphorus-766
Zinc-921
Barium-0
SUS Viscosity @210F-60.4
cSt Viscosity @100C-10.33
Flashpoint in F- 430
Fuel % <0.5
Antifreeze % 0
Water % 0
Insolubles % 0.1
TBN 4.6
Well here is an updated UOA on my 2012 Passat TDi which is just over 118k miles. It seems Blackstone has finally updated their "averages" for our engines in terms of aluminum, but I'm not sure exactly how accurate this is. I've been using the recommended 10k mile intervals in between the previous analysis around 50k and haven't done one since as I figured it wouldn't show much difference, especially when compared to the averages of the older tdi motors.
Blackstone has recommended I go up to 12k on my next oil change interval, but I'm not sure I'll try it or not. The TBN was still strong (2.9) on the Pennzoil Ultra Euro L that I have been using for the last 5 oil changes (I believe). I think the results compared to the Liqui-Moly Top Tech 4200 for 7,500 miles (at roughly 50k miles) used in the last oil analysis may be somewhat in favor of the Pennzoil, but it may be a better comparison if I were to do another round with the Liqui-Moly at this juncture for a better idea. The price I've been paying on Amazon for the Pennzoil at just over $5/qt. is tough to beat.
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Blackstone has recommended I go up to 12k on my next oil change interval, but I'm not sure I'll try it or not. The TBN was still strong (2.9) on the Pennzoil Ultra Euro L that I have been using for the last 5 oil changes (I believe). I think the results compared to the Liqui-Moly Top Tech 4200 for 7,500 miles (at roughly 50k miles) used in the last oil analysis may be somewhat in favor of the Pennzoil, but it may be a better comparison if I were to do another round with the Liqui-Moly at this juncture for a better idea. The price I've been paying on Amazon for the Pennzoil at just over $5/qt. is tough to beat.
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VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
It's about time they updated their averages, after causing several people to go into absolute panics about high aluminum - one guy I know went so far as to trade his TDI Passat in for a gasser due to the high aluminum report.
VeeDubTDI
Wanderluster, Traveler, TDIClub Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2000
- Location
- Springfield, VA
- TDI
- ‘18 Tesla Model 3D+, ‘14 Cadillac ELR, ‘13 Fiat 500e
I think they still have some other engine included in that average.
Just did the 50K, first sample of my Amsoil and this time I sampled the stream sooner (holy hot oil) rather than collecting the last drips that may contain more fallout. Just mailed it off to blackstone, will post the findings asap
MichaelB
Veteran Member
I think that there is to much of this chicken little sky is falling thing propagated on this forum. How many engine wear related failures have been reported here do to high AL in a Blackstone report? I can't find any!!!!!!!!
tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
^^^You need to realize that anytime there's an anomaly in wear metals in a UOA, there will be an alarm sounded. It only makes sense, because the whole POINT of UOAs is to catch excessive, premature wear by counting metal particles.
As you can see from the reasoned posts above, Blackstone, and doubtless other oil analysis companies, will need to continually update their averages, now that we are seeing that the "high" aluminum count is normal.
As you can see from the reasoned posts above, Blackstone, and doubtless other oil analysis companies, will need to continually update their averages, now that we are seeing that the "high" aluminum count is normal.
MichaelB
Veteran Member
What I was addressing was the statement that due to a Blackstone report a Passat TDI owner ran for the hills and bought different car not paying any attention to the fact that his had a different TDI engine than Blackstone had a history of, and maybe the folks at Blackstone were giving him info that didn't mean that his engine would have eminent failure. Again I say Chicken Little.
pparks1
Veteran Member
Agreed.
Not to mention the fact that I don't personally know anybody who does Used Oil Analysis, in fact almost everybody I have even mentioned it to had 0 idea that these services existed, let alone that anybody would pay money to use them.
My point being, the vast majority of our engines on the road are never included in the averages. And the ones who are included have owners who are OCD. We use additives, we change oil early/late (depending upon your school of thought), we tinker, we run tunes, we change parts, we have special engine break in procedures, etc. Meaning our cars are not really indicative of a real average anyway.
I already have enough stuff in my life to worry about, I'm not going to start doing UOA's and fretting that perhaps something might break down the road at some unknown point. It might be 72,000 miles, it might be 482,000 miles. I may not own the car long enough for 482,000 miles to happen. It will be what it will be.
MichaelB
Veteran Member
I think PPARKS1 summed it up rather well. I can not find any engine or oil related failures due to wear metals posted on this forum. I think Blackstone and others are out there for truck fleet management where expensive (many gallons of oil) could be a savings. Not 10k OCI's in a TDI. How many of this forum members have warded off an engine failure because of said reports and how many have actually saved any money by extending the OCI due to said report after the price of the report is figured into the equasion?
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I just find them to be really interesting more than anything, Granted I just sent a sample from my Cummins in to inspect for coolant as my radiator is full of sludge. Strangely enough I Never have sent in a sample from my air cooled dirt bike as iv lost 2 upper wrist pin's due to running it over 10,000 RPM in slow sections of woods racing with oil temps above 300F
