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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old January 13th, 2020, 16:21   #5116
nwdiver
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Originally Posted by Tin Man View Post
I may be in the same boat, but it's doubtful since my next car likely will be a true sports car which overwhelmingly means gasoline,
Isn't the main purpose of a sports car supposed to be performance?
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Old January 13th, 2020, 16:38   #5117
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We are clearly on a steep curve now. I think we'll be completely electrified in half a generation.
Assuming a generation is 35yrs....no way weíre fully electric in 15-20yrs. I mean, just take a look at the number of 20+yr-old vehicles still on the road today (not to mention on TDIclub alone).

The biggest hindrance is probably that LOTS of people just canít, or donít want to, buy new cars - just too expensive. Given the choice between $20K for a bargain-basement, no options new EV and <$10K for a high-end, fully loaded gasser thatís 10yrs old, thereís a huge segment of the population that will always go for the latter.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 17:17   #5118
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Given the choice between $20K for a bargain-basement, no options new EV and <$10K for a high-end, fully loaded gasser thatís 10yrs old, thereís a huge segment of the population that will always go for the latter.
That may be true today, but what if there was a $3 or $4 carbon tax on every gallon of fuel? A lot can happen in 15 years. I don't expect every ICE vehicle being off the road at that point, but I could see most all of the new offerings being electric.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 17:26   #5119
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$3-$4/gal carbon tax would basically be a “tax on the poor”; or (if on the other side of the current political spectrum), some sort of validation of the “coastal elites”.
Tough sell for either side.

For sure, a lot can change in 15yrs., but given the current political climate (and climate climate), a LOT would indeed have to change.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 17:44   #5120
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Who knows. The govt. could do a huge cash for clunkers type program to get folks into EV's and scrap their old cars. Ultimately, people will save money with more efficient vehicles.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 18:13   #5121
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Isn't the main purpose of a sports car supposed to be performance?
Uh, no.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 18:16   #5122
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Who knows. The govt. could do a huge cash for clunkers type program to get folks into EV's and scrap their old cars. Ultimately, people will save money with more efficient vehicles.
Assuming the price of electricity and taxes thereof remain low.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 18:18   #5123
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Uh, no.
... what do you buy a sports car for? If it's not performance seems like a lot of people are wasting a lot of money on 'performance' parts...
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Old January 13th, 2020, 18:26   #5124
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... what do you buy a sports car for? If it's not performance seems like a lot of people are wasting a lot of money on 'performance' parts...
Uh, you get a performance car/GT/Pony car/hot rod for that.

Sports cars, the real kind, don't need huge power or large engines.

"Performance" means a lot more than 0-60 mph acceleration, but you'd never know from how two-bit journalists use the term. I don't blame you for thinking this way.

Imagine a nice Polka or Waltz. Or better yet, skiing down a great slope. Sure you need some speed, but the penultimate sports car, a Miata (or S2000), has relatively low power. It's something the "video game" cars aren't yet known to do. Fake sound need not apply either. Think of a 4 wheel motorcycle but still a car. I'm not too sure how to classify a Civic Type R, but the Si version seems closer to a sports coupe.
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Old January 13th, 2020, 18:35   #5125
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"Performance" means a lot more than 0-60 mph acceleration,
Did I imply that it does? Good cornering. Low CG. ~50/50 weight distribution AND acceleration. All things gasoline is no longer king of
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Old January 13th, 2020, 19:02   #5126
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I can understand if Tinman wants a miata or S2000 or boxster. There definitely is something visceral about a good ICE sports car.
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Old January 14th, 2020, 04:27   #5127
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Did I imply that it does? Good cornering. Low CG. ~50/50 weight distribution AND acceleration. All things gasoline is no longer king of
Uh, yes you did. Agreed that "performance" should include all of the above but that's not what makes a sports car desirable - it may be fading fast as the old "analog" experience of driving yields to what amounts to be a live video-game experience.

But more worrisome is the "entry price" of heavily subsidized EV's while still keeping the market slim and unobtainable for most. It's ironic that "cost savings" is touted for such a car.

Reminds me of the fictional "oil subsidies" (try to find them - its mostly tax incentives for environmental and economically responsible practices) touted by the same people that are ruining the market for affordable EV's with what really happens - high prices. Mark the health care market, college tuition, or now the "affordable" housing prices, all subsidized. EV aficionados should support the end of subsidies and let the market determine how "affordable" lugging heavy batteries with low energy density around really is.
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Old January 14th, 2020, 09:35   #5128
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Who knows. The govt. could do a huge cash for clunkers type program to get folks into EV's and scrap their old cars. Ultimately, people will save money with more efficient vehicles.
Cash for Clunkers was, IMHO, an absolute fraud of a program - the true "clunkers" are the <$1000 beaters on the roads that are being held together with duct tape and prayers, and none of those were "clunked" because the owners couldn't afford to buy something that qualified for the program even with the money from "clunking" their own cars (when they could get anything for them).

Why? Because the clunker program was focused on the EPA MPG rating of the vehicle, not its physical condition. A Jeep in perfect repair qualified for the clunker money because it was only rated 19MPG highway, but a beat-up, rusted out 80s Civic with duct tape over the rust holes and belching blue oili smoke out the tailpipe would get virtually nothing because it got over 25MPG. Common sense would be to take both vehicles (but not give full Clunker payout money for the Jeep because it was in serviceable condition), then offer the owner of the Civic the Jeep at an "auction price". After all, what's more polluting? 19MPG in good repair, or 30MPG that includes sending a quart of 10x30 out the tailpipe as blue smoke every 5000 miles?

My Jeep club's local chapter had a "pick-and-pull party" about 10-11 years back at a junkyard that had a whole lot filled with just Clunker Jeeps (mostly XJ Cherokees and ZJ/WJ Grand Cherokees), and the chapter officers arranged for us to get first shot at them.

I have never in my life seen so many older Jeeps in such good condition in one place - I pulled a bumper off a late 80s XJ that had literally zero rust - eight bolts holding the bumper brackets to the body, and every one came out without needing power tools or even penetrating oil. The sight of the cleanest XJs I think I've ever seen that weren't on a dealer lot just sitting there waiting to be fed into the shredder still makes me sick to my stomach to this day.
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Old January 14th, 2020, 14:23   #5129
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Well, I have a pretty nice 2001 XJ sitting in my driveway. They didn't get them all. I bet more of them have succumb to kids jacking them up and rolling them over than cash for clunkers took off the road.

I wasn't really passing judgement on the clunkers program. I'm just saying similar programs could easily take place in the future.
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Old January 15th, 2020, 07:34   #5130
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You could have gotten rid of that blue belching Civic if you used the money towards a higher mpg car. I want to say that it had to have a 15 mpg increase to qualify. I looked at getting rid of our 97 corolla but my wife didn't want another VW diesel at that time.
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