Diesels make more sense than hybrids

TheCityGame · Dec 27, 2011

http://jalopnik.com/5857979/diesels-make-more-sense-than-hybrids-says-ex+transportation-secretary

This is the correct link from the jalopnik article. When I went there, their link didn't work right.

http://www.cleandieseldelivers.com/upload/CleanDieselDelivers_White_Paper.pdf

The comments section is always fun, too.

TDICADDGUY · Dec 27, 2011

Go Norman!

"High efficiency ICE vehicles could achieve a remarkably higher effect on the environment than other competing technologies," the paper continues. "The average additional cost for a high efficiency ICE is about $2,000, against $8,000 for an electric vehicle. Diesels continue to demonstrate the ability to meet consumer needs without being cost prohibitive."

http://jalopnik.com/5857979/diesels-make-more-sense-than-hybrids-says-ex+transportation-secretary

i64w2gohome · Dec 27, 2011

Norm Mineta: "Diesels make more sense than hybrids."

From Jalopnik:

"Clean diesel" cars are cheaper, more readily available and more accepted in the market than hybrids or electric cars, according to a white piper published by former Secretary of Transportation, Norman Mineta. Holy crap, car enthusiasts have been trying to tell the world that for a decade.

Read the article here:

Diesels make more sense than hybrids, say ex-Transportation Secretary

darrelld · Dec 28, 2011

Diesels make more sense than hybrids, says ex-Transportation Secretary

"Clean diesel" cars are cheaper, more readily available and more accepted in the market than hybrids or electric cars, according to a white piper published by former Secretary of Transportation, Norman Mineta. Holy crap, car enthusiasts have been trying to tell the world that for a decade.

http://jalopnik.com/5857979/diesels-make-more-sense-than-hybrids-says-ex+transportation-secretary

Dooglas · Dec 28, 2011

i64w2gohome said:
"Clean diesel" cars are .......... more accepted in the market than hybrids, according to a white piper published by former Secretary of Transportation, Norman Mineta.

Ah, what country does Norman live in again?

King Crimson · Dec 28, 2011

Not when the state you live in has mandated the use of B12 & B20 and you have to drive 20 miles to find anything B5 or below.

kjclow · Dec 29, 2011

And yet, VW is surprised that the demand for diesel passats is twice what they anticiapted. Look at the diesel sales numbers on page 13. Diesel sales for VW prouducts: A3 is about 55%, Q7 is 25%, JSW is just over 80%, Golf is about 45%, Jetta sedan is 22%, and Toureg is about 45%. Then look at the hybrids, none over 10%.

Dooglas · Jan 2, 2012

King Crimson said:
Not when the state you live in has mandated the use of B12 & B20 and you have to drive 20 miles to find anything B5 or below.

For what it's worth, my TDI has logged nearly 100,000 miles on B20. Seems to work fine.

DPM · Jan 2, 2012

how's your DPF?

( I know the answer...)

03bora · Jan 3, 2012

One thing I think our tree hugger people might not consider when buying a hybrid is....what happens to the big battery pack and electrical components once the vehicle reaches the end of its life service? I'm sure that it's not a cheap process to dispose of or recycle. Long term, I would have to say clean diesel is by far better.

01greenjetta · Jan 3, 2012

Diesel Hybrid

Don't bash hybrids, diesels could benefit from hybrid drive trains as well. My car sits in the carport idling every morning, if it had a hybrid drive system, I could be halfway to town by the time it warmed up. Maybe even a hydraulic hybrid. Hydraulic hybrids can store as much as 90% of braking energy.
VW's diesel-hybrid XL1, gets 260 mpg. There is no vehicle that would not benefit from a hybrid drive train. Locomotives have been doing it for half a century.

German_1er_diesel · Jan 3, 2012

01greenjetta said:
My car sits in the carport idling every morning, if it had a hybrid drive system, I could be halfway to town by the time it warmed up.

What you need is not a hybrid... it's an auxiliary heater.
http://www.parkingheater.co.uk/

Idling a cold engine reduces engine life, increases emissions, etc.
Where do you think heat comes from in a hybrid?

kjclow · Jan 3, 2012

01greenjetta said:
Don't bash hybrids, diesels could benefit from hybrid drive trains as well. My car sits in the carport idling every morning, if it had a hybrid drive system, I could be halfway to town by the time it warmed up. Maybe even a hydraulic hybrid. Hydraulic hybrids can store as much as 90% of braking energy.
VW's diesel-hybrid XL1, gets 260 mpg. There is no vehicle that would not benefit from a hybrid drive train. Locomotives have been doing it for half a century.

Should have learned by now that diesels do not warm up while sitting and idling. You have to drive it. Mine takes five to ten minutes of driving to heat up when the temp is around freezing.

If you want your car to be warm when you walk out the door, as German_1er_diesel mentioned, get a block heater or coolant heater, whatever you want to call them.

01greenjetta · Jan 3, 2012

Yep, I need a block heater. I still think it's better to warm up idling than to drive it cold. Yes it would be even better if it was already warm. Still, it would get much better mileage if it was hybrid. Diesels would benefit even more from a hybrid drive train than gas cars, because they can use the electric motor for instant torque when the turbo is spooling up. Use the electric motors for take off and then let 'er rip when the boost builds. Put a couple of these Protean Electric Motors in the rear wheels and you have a 4 wheel drive dragster!

Obviously I'm in the wrong place to be preaching hybrids but two of those electic motors in the rear would give you 300 more horsepower. You wouldn't even need many batteries, just charge an ultracapicitor with braking, and use the power for short bursts at take off. Maybe a small battery pack for low speed stop and go driving.

Dooglas · Jan 3, 2012

DPM said:
how's your DPF?

World of difference between B20 from a commercial supplier and WVO strained in your garage. I have never heard of a single FP failure in a PD TDI linked to use of B20. Have you?

BadMonKey · Jan 3, 2012

German_1er_diesel said:
What you need is not a hybrid... it's an auxiliary heater.
http://www.parkingheater.co.uk/

Idling a cold engine reduces engine life, increases emissions, etc.
Where do you think heat comes from in a hybrid?

And where does that electricity come from? Running a 300w block heater when all you need is a pair of gloves and a good jacket

Umm a heater core like every other gasser

BadMonKey · Jan 3, 2012

kjclow said:
Should have learned by now that diesels do not warm up while sitting and idling. You have to drive it. Mine takes five to ten minutes of driving to heat up when the temp is around freezing.

Yes; because the latest TDI's have a secondary mpg robbing electric heating source.

BadMonKey · Jan 3, 2012

03bora said:
One thing I think our tree hugger people might not consider when buying a hybrid is....what happens to the big battery pack and electrical components once the vehicle reaches the end of its life service? I'm sure that it's not a cheap process to dispose of or recycle. Long term, I would have to say clean diesel is by far better.

I live in Boulder, pretty much the mecca of tree huggers next to Oregon and they all drive 20 year old Subaru's or Honda's which is better on the environment than any new car out there today

The silly part is trying to make a $25K hybrid or diesel seem economical over a 40mpg $15K gasser that runs on a cheaper fuel

If you completely overhaul our fuel taxation, refineries, and current emission systems sure it makes more sense. Than what the hell do we do with all the leftover RUG as you cant refine a barrel of crude to only diesel? You add more pressure to the shipping and distribution channels where the diesel really belongs pulling our food and cheap walmart crap from China that our society demands.

The real economy/energy/carbon saver would be a competitive small-mid sized diesel truck to make a dent in the F150/1500 truck sales which dominate domestic sales.

kjclow · Jan 3, 2012

BadMonKey said:
Yes; because the latest TDI's have a secondary mpg robbing electric heating source.

It took about that same amount of time for my beetle to warm up too.

03bora · Jan 3, 2012

BadMonKey said:
I live in Boulder, pretty much the mecca of tree huggers next to Oregon and they all drive 20 year old Subaru's or Honda's which is better on the environment than any new car out there today

The silly part is trying to make a $25K hybrid or diesel seem economical over a 40mpg $15K gasser that runs on a cheaper fuel If you completely overhaul our fuel taxation, refineries, and current emission systems sure it makes more sense. Than what the hell do we do with all the leftover RUG as you cant refine a barrel of crude to only diesel? You add more pressure to the shipping and distribution channels where the diesel really belongs pulling our food and cheap walmart crap from China that our society demands.

The real economy/energy/carbon saver would be a competitive small-mid sized diesel truck to make a dent in the F150/1500 truck sales which dominate domestic sales.

For sure, there are some older model vehicles on the road that get screaming good mileage. One could say, to own a vehicle that gets good mileage doesn't necessarily need to be a hybrid. Being a tech at a used car lot, I do get my hands on many different vehicles....some good ones, and some not so good. If my TDi died on me tomorrow, I would seriously consider and most likely purchase something like a Toyota yaris or corolla. Quality seems to be good and the pattern of repairs I do on them seem to be mainly brakes and tires. So, there's a non-diesel or hybrid that gets fantastic fuel mileage.

01greenjetta · Jan 3, 2012

BadMonKey said:
The real economy/energy/carbon saver would be a competitive small-mid sized diesel truck to make a dent in the F150/1500 truck sales which dominate domestic sales.

Amen Brother!
I'm running E85 in my 2001 Jeep. Any vehicle produced later than 1991 can run E85 no matter what anyone tells you. All RUG has ethanol in it, so all fuel systems are compatible. It will start a little harder in the morning, but heck, I start a little harder when I've been drinking ethanol too.
I do a lot of steep canyon curvy road driving. Not for fun, but it's where I choose to live. My diesel Jetta gets slightly better mpg's than a comparable gas car would on the same route, about 32 mpg. My Cherokee gets 10 mpg on E85 in the canyons, and 12 MPG on RUG. That's 35 cents per mile on E85 and 37 cents per mile on RUG. If I had a 2.8 CRD in my Jeep, like every other 3rd world country, my MPG would be in the 20's like my brother in his "barbie Jeep" CRD Liberty. We need to convert the offenders. Compact cars are not the problem. We need work trucks that get good mileage.

DPM · Jan 3, 2012

Dooglas said:
World of difference between B20 from a commercial supplier and WVO strained in your garage. I have never heard of a single FP failure in a PD TDI linked to use of B20. Have you?

No-one mentioned fuel pump failures. I asked about your DPF.

Oh wait.

You don't have one. So you're not in a great position to comment on DPF longevity in the latest cars...

German_1er_diesel · Jan 4, 2012

BadMonKey said:
And where does that electricity come from? Running a 300w block heater when all you need is a pair of gloves and a good jacket

That's not an electric heater. It's a diesel powered coolant heater. Definitely a better solution to heat up a cold car than idling the engine.
I'm in the "pair of gloves/good jacket" camp too, but we don't get THAT cold winters here.

BadMonKey said:
Umm a heater core like every other gasser

Don't hybrids also have an auxiliary electric heater? Either way, I don't think a hybrid would be an advantage in this situation:

01greenjetta said:
My car sits in the carport idling every morning, if it had a hybrid drive system, I could be halfway to town by the time it warmed up.

BadMonKey · Jan 4, 2012

kjclow said:
It took about that same amount of time for my beetle to warm up too.

That your new TDI's aren't working right?

No offense but bring that beetle out here with negative digits every morning and let me know how long it takes to warm up. There is a reason VW added the auxiliary electric heater to the new TDI's and every diesel owner i know fully expects the long wait for heat unless you have a block heater.

kjclow · Jan 4, 2012

Auxiliary heater helps with the cold mornings but the cabin doesn't really heat up until the engine is hot. After driving diesels for the last six or seven winters, I was amazed at how fast the 1.8l gas engine on my 03 passat started blasting hot air.

The few single digit nights we get over here are more than enough to test my JSW and remind me of why my wife says we won't go back to Iowa.

BadMonKey · Jan 4, 2012

German_1er_diesel said:
That's not an electric heater. It's a diesel powered coolant heater. Definitely a better solution to heat up a cold car than idling the engine.
I'm in the "pair of gloves/good jacket" camp too, but we don't get THAT cold winters here.

Don't hybrids also have an auxiliary electric heater? Either way, I don't think a hybrid would be an advantage in this situation:

I've never seen those on small cars here? Wonder what the downside is as i would expect every luxury car on the planet to have one if they worked as claimed? Do you have one installed?

Nope; I think the new plug-in Prius uses a electric heater but until its released no one really knows. IMO they would be stupid not to take advantage of being plugged in and preheat the batteries and coolant, but I'm sure the same idiot that thought the touch screen was cool still works on the team to put additional worthless crap on it

Honestly the hybrid fairs about the same as any gasser in cold weather with no heat and crappy mpg's for the first 5 min. of driving in cold weather. If you want to idle it warm you have to press the accelerator after starting it to get the gass engine to start up otherwise it does nothing after you start it. Maybe the latest gen3 is different?

BadMonKey · Jan 4, 2012

kjclow said:
Auxiliary heater helps with the cold mornings but the cabin doesn't really heat up until the engine is hot. After driving diesels for the last six or seven winters, I was amazed at how fast the 1.8l gas engine on my 03 passat started blasting hot air.

The few single digit nights we get over here are more than enough to test my JSW and remind me of why my wife says we won't go back to Iowa.

I had to carry a ice scrapper inside my TDI most winters to scrape ice as i drove. The humidity from me breathing would freeze to the front windshield almost every morning. On the really cold negative double digit mornings it would take 15-20 miles to get the temp needle moving for moderate to warm air. The latest TDI I drove started defrosting the front windshield right after start-up. It was night and day difference with the electric heater.

Sergeant TDI · Jan 4, 2012

BadMonKey said:
And where does that electricity come from? Running a 300w block heater when all you need is a pair of gloves and a good jacket

Umm a heater core like every other gasser

My thought exactly. Between a good coat and heated seats you don't even need to mess with the air heater.

Dooglas · Jan 4, 2012

DPM said:
No-one mentioned fuel pump failures. I asked about your DPF. Oh wait. You don't have one. So you're not in a great position to comment on DPF longevity in the latest cars...

Or to say it a different way, I really have no reason to be concerned about it. On the other hand, this NREL report appears to document a significant increase in the efficacy of a diesel particulate filter when using B20.

http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/39606.pdf

German_1er_diesel · Jan 5, 2012

BadMonKey said:
I've never seen those on small cars here? Wonder what the downside is as i would expect every luxury car on the planet to have one if they worked as claimed? Do you have one installed?

No, but I probably would have if I didn't have a spot in a warm garage. You can get them from the factory in Golfs, in the Focus it's included in the "Winter Pack II"
Retrofitting them is not expensive and very, very common.

Diesels make more sense than hybrids

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