2000 Jetta ALH, No Start, What I was Told

tanner

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(Solved) 2000 Jetta ALH, No Start, What I was Told

I bought the car not running, I was told by previous owner who was told by hutchinsons in alabama that the cause of no start is flywheel/clutch.
The person I bought the car from said that if he plays with the clutch transmission for a while he can get it to start every now and then. Sounds weird to me, but he had paperwork showing that the engine had been replaced with a fresh refurb 40k miles ago so I picked it up.
The flywheel is making good contact with the starter and turns motor over.
 
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jettawreck

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I think someone is sadly mistaken. If the starter is turning the engine over the clutch/flywheel is not the cause of the no start situation.
 

tanner

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okay, thanks.. note that I have not heard car start yet, just crank over.

Idk if guys was full of crap, but he did have receipts proving age/mileage of refurbish.

Maybe him playing with clutch transmission had nothing to do with it starting and it was just lucky timing. he did tell me once it starts it runs good and will stay running flywheel just sounds terrible. So according to him it will start, but not often at all.
 

MeOmYo

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Will it crank over without having to play with the clutch/transmission and just not start or do you have to play with the clutch/transmission to make it crank over?
 

steve6

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unless the flywheel teeth are gone, its not the flywheel.. sounds like its not that.

try replacing relay 109, there is a no starting thread.
 

tanner

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Will it crank over without having to play with the clutch/transmission and just not start or do you have to play with the clutch/transmission to make it crank over?
The car will turn over without even mashing clutch. That threw me off as my 2013 will not do anything without clutch pressed.

unless the flywheel teeth are gone, its not the flywheel.. sounds like its not that.

try replacing relay 109, there is a no starting thread.
I'll look into relay, it's turning engine over so not teeth problem.
I've been looking at the trouble shoot guide. Only reason I posted is I was told about the clutch flywheel.
 

tanner

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Here's a picture of the instrument cluster when turning key on.
Notice no engine light or glow plug light. Isn't that kind of an indication relay 109 like Steve6 recommended?
 

tanner

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So I tried jumping fuel cut off solenoid straight to battery got click turned over same thing, no start

Can it still be relay 109, or is that bypassed jumping. Either way I'll order one just to have in glove box.

Edit: what can really fail about these relays. Idk if mines been replaced before, but I thought it looked nice.







 
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1.9ZOOK

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My only experience with the 109 relay is,if I stall the engine it will not start at all unless I pull the relay with the key off,then replug it,then it starts fine.
Have yo cracked open the #3 injector line to see if fuel bubbles out?
ps-I see you have a Tintop (thumbs up)
 
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tanner

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I've removed relay 109 more times than I can count. Still no engine light or glow plug light.

I tried running a wire on prongs 30 & 87 and plugging in relay still nothing and no GP and Engine light.

I then tried running wire from relay prong 85 to ground and got a small click, but no GP light or Engine light.

Cars still not starting, but battery turns over fast as can be.

I have ordered another 109 relay from idparts, but I cannot just sit here and not tinker.
 

csstevej

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Ok let's look at the solder end ,where the pins are with a magnifier glass. If the relay is black, it's the old style, gray new style.
If it's black, one or more of the solder joints will have circular cracks.
You can resolder it if you do not have one yet and check if the gp light comes on and starts
 

gatz

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No need to keep looking at the relay if you've bypassed it and still have an issue. Can you list what you've checked so far? What about fuses?
 

tanner

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No need to keep looking at the relay if you've bypassed it and still have an issue. Can you list what you've checked so far? What about fuses?
Okay memory a bit hazy now, just quit working on it a few hours ago.

Everything I've tried got me no Glow Plug Light nor Engine Light, and would crank, but never start running.

1. So I tried the wiring of 30/87 and 85 to ground.

2. I tried battery straight to fuel cutoff solenoid.

3. I took ECU/ECM out looked at connections, looked clean, didn't open box.

4. I checked fuse 32 (if I remember correctly)

5. I've inspected clear fuel lines and is getting fuel there, haven't pulled an injector or glow plug to look at that, and I don't plan on it because I feel that could wait till after I get glow plug and engine lights working. (one problem at a time)


I may have done more, but I can't remember.
 

tanner

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Ok let's look at the solder end ,where the pins are with a magnifier glass. If the relay is black, it's the old style, gray new style.
If it's black, one or more of the solder joints will have circular cracks.
You can resolder it if you do not have one yet and check if the gp light comes on and starts
It's the gray one, scroll up, I provided detailed (to best of my ability) pictures of the updated 109 and see any problems.
 

UhOh

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What's happening with the ASV?

Question to all: Do the 109 relays have diodes in them? (I've fried diodes in relays and this kills the relay.)
 

UhOh

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What's happening with the ASV?

Question to all: Do the 109 relays have diodes in them? (I've fried diodes in relays and this kills the relay.)
 

steve6

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So if you're not getting the proper lights on the dash there's an issue with that circuit, you need to figure out why no power going to the ECM properly, check the area for infestations that could have caused bad wiring
 

tanner

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I checked ASV it moves freely with no sticking, I looked at it with key on and it stays out allowing air.
 

jettawreck

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So if you're not getting the proper lights on the dash there's an issue with that circuit, you need to figure out why no power going to the ECM properly, check the area for infestations that could have caused bad wiring
And bad ground wire connections. The ones under the battery tray are typically getting ugly but there are also a couple under the windshield rain tray valance by the ECU. While in there it's a good time to check for damaged wires (and there are bundles of them).
 

tanner

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Can you bypass the ignition switch to check if it's bad?

I haven't taken the volt meter to it so no clue if it is, I'm just wondering if I can take 12V to it directly in any way and just bypass it completely just to see if car will crank if that's the problem.
 

mjhandy

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Crack an injector and ensure it spits fuel while you crank. Make sure you're getting fuel. Also, get a full scan to see if there are any codes.
 

tanner

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Crack an injector and ensure it spits fuel while you crank. Make sure you're getting fuel. Also, get a full scan to see if there are any codes.
Is vcds and vagcom only ways to pull codes. Can a local parts store do it?

Is vcds and vagcom vw only, or can any diesel mechanic do it. We have a few local that aren't necissarily tdi gurus.

Also would the injector not squirting not let the glow plug and engine light appear.

I'm asking as many question as I can bc I've been busy and haven't touched car since Tuesday, just trying to get as many ideas to try when I get time.
 

jettawreck

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Is vcds and vagcom only ways to pull codes. Can a local parts store do it?
Is vcds and vagcom vw only, or can any diesel mechanic do it. We have a few local that aren't necissarily tdi gurus.
Also would the injector not squirting not let the glow plug and engine light appear.
I'm asking as many question as I can bc I've been busy and haven't touched car since Tuesday, just trying to get as many ideas to try when I get time.
VCDS isn't the "only" way to scan for codes, but it is a VW platform specific scan diagnostic tool that will correctly display codes that some generic code readers won't give more than generic codes. VCDS is the best but not the only way.
Injector not squirting won't have any interaction with the GP indicator but may/may not throw a cel.
I doubt any non-VW shops will have VCDS.
If you plan on owning a VW long term you really should consider owning a Ross Tech VCDS cable.
 

tanner

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Haven't had much time lately. Newest thing to add to list I've done is cleaned the under battery grounds. Still nothing. Is it normal there's nothing connected at the top of the battery post ground?

There are only 3 grounds to clean like in my picture right?

 

tanner

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Problem still crank, no start. No CEL or Glow Plug light.

So I got a voltage meter and checked the cut off solenoid, I am getting voltage, not quite 12v but above 10v, I blame this on low quality craftsman meter.

Anyways that wire is going directly to ECU, so I'm getting power ran through ECU for sure.

I also retried the bypassing relay 109, last time I did each jumping wire separately 30/87 then 85/ground. This time I used two wires same time to both jump 30/87 and ground 85. Still nothing and relay clicks either way with twisting of key.

I can **almost** guarantee it's not ignition switch as radio turns on with key and turns off not with turning off key, but from removal. Also headlights will not come on without key being turned on.

I haven't cracked the injectors yet, as I want to figure out my lighting problems first.

I've cleaned my grounds.

Only thing I can think of is start tracing wires, but what wires should I trace?
I'm guessing this is an ECU power problem to somewhere, I just don't know where.

I'll inspect under dash for bad wires, other than that I'm lost. Also replacing a bad wire in this thing is a nightmare as nothing will be easy to get too.
 

gatz

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One thing that comes to mind is you might want to try using an incandescent test light like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Professional-6-12V-Circuit-Tester-Indicator/dp/B003UHNMMS

With wiring faults alot of time you can still read a voltage, however it wont be able to supply any current. Thats what I was worried about with your 10V voltage.

Depending on how much spare time you've got, check out these channels where they do alot of electrical diagnostics, and you'll see that test light used alot too:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtAGzm9e_liY7ko1PBhzTHA
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCrf6f8hn5oy4alB2WXJCIqA

I would say at the very least you need to start with a good wiring diagram. Bentley's printed manuals or VW factory manuals from erwin.vw.com should have them. Alldatadiy.com also, but I havent used that one. Figure out what ECU inputs & outputs you're missing and focus on that. The ECU is under the windshield wipers I believe which lets you access most of the wiring on the car easily. You want to pull the connector housing off so you can probe the pins while they're still plugged in. The manuals will have the ECU pinouts but VW's wiring diagrams are rather unusual -- they'll be spread out over many pages for each subsystem.

Sorry I don't know if this post is even any help, as its nothing specific just a methodology.
 
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jettawreck

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I would start out by seeing if VCDS or perhaps even some good multi function scan tool will connect and communicate w/ECU.
There are wiring diagrams in the Bentley manual that show what wires from where power and/or "wake up" the ECU. (Good luck making sense of them) Need to find out if that is powering up and if there are codes they can eliminate much guesswork.
I had to deal with some of this in the process of converting the 1.8 gasser chassis to TDI.
 

tanner

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So I got the car to crank using old farmers trick, but the ecu killed it as soon as I took the rag away. Lol

Anyways she starts perfectly now. New immobilizer deleted ecu started first try. I am getting a flashing glow plug and CEL, but I checked all fluids and let it get up to running temp. Did a few revs, blows black smoke on WOT. I'm happy first time I got to hear it run since buying.
 
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