'96 Passat "Turbo goes boom"

\'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

OK guys...I really need your help now!!!

On my way to work this morning I got stuck behind a school bus. When the bus pulled off I put the pedal to the floor and the engine felt like it went to running on 2 cyls and then died completely. I assumed it was air in the fuel lines or whatever. After pulling over i attempted to start. 1st try was no go. 2nd try it came back.....However, this time I hear a loud turbo noise. Sounded like the blades of the turbo were touching the sides of the housing. continuing down the road a bit the noise was not getting better. I am beginning to think about turning around to go home... Then the noise stopped and the white cloud arrived. At this point I am sure it is the turbo and just need to get 2 miles home before the crank case is empty.

SO....What are my options? This turbo is most likely toast. I might be able to get a used one from the salvage yard.

Who does rebuilding? Can they replace impellers? Any help is greatly appreciated.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Andy, welcome to Fred's. This is an interesting newbie post. B4 turbo failures are rare.

Do you know how many miles are on the car in question?

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Turbo's do blow......Put a new one on the car. Impex has one for 695.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Assuming you didn't let it get into a runaway situation (car revving out of control on it's own by ingesting it's own engine oil) you should have no real troubles. Like Tomo said, you just buy a new turbo, strap it on, and drive away. You will also need to clean the entire Turbo to Intake Manifold plumbing, with an emphasis on the intercooler to be sure there isn't a bunch of engine oil sitting in a big puddle in there.

If your car did runaway, you have a possibilty of a bunch of damage, and will need to consult with a specialist to do some real investigation.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Call Shane here--they are distributors of Borg-Warner (KKK) and Garrett. Should cost ~$500 for a brand-new turbo:
Industrial Injection Service:
(801) 972-0476
1201 South 700 West
Salt Lake City, UT

PS IF it can be rebuilt, they could tell you--and it would cost ~$350 depending on how much damage you have to the thing...

Good Luck!

-BB

Re: 1996 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

there's no reason to look at rebuilt when you can buy a brand-new unit for so cheap, as noted above.

Re: 1996 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Kinda related...
Since these turbos are known leakers from the factory, is there any special seal magic a rebuild shop can do to make them not so leaky?

I had a KKK(K26?) on my old Quantum TD that didn't burn a drop of oil. My 97 Passat TDI with a KKK(K03) burns about 1-1.5 qt every 5000mi.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Car had/has 190,000 on it. 110,000 is mine.

I didn't have run away issues. I assumed that the smoke was oil from the turbo but it may have just been poor combustion byproducts due to an obstructed intake and exhaust and no boast. It was a little white for oil. There was a sound of broken parts bounching around right before the smoke. The sound went away when the smoke started.

Assuming that the turbo is toast I will buy new. Can I choose the KKK, VNT15, or GT15....or am I stuck with the GT15 that this engine currently has????

Thanks in advance for all the input. I will post pictures and post mortem discussion once it is available.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

You can buy another GT15 or a KKK 006 003

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Anyone know the actual part number for the GT15. One distributor is saying : GT1749V is the correct one for my application.

I haven't gotten to removing the broken one yet.... had to buy a heater for my garage.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Isn't the GT1749V the PD150 turbo? If so, isn't that a VNT, not wastegated? If so, this would require a different ECU & MAF, correct?

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Don't know the specifics on the turbo model, but this page might be helpful to you. It's a translation of the Russian Version of EKTA (VW Parts catalog) that covers the turbo on your car.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

If the compressor wheel side is fragmented, you may want to pull the intercooler to see what it trapped for you.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Wowwww!

Shane is quoting $450 for new KKK. I have seen the same turbo anywhere from 584 to 1300s. Need to double check the actual number on the turbo housing and get back to him tomorrow.
Blackened Bora, have you purchased from him in the past????

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

if the turbine blades went into the pipes---!!!! pull the pipe from turbo to intercooler--and intercooler--and flush well!!!!!!!!! depending on the size of the pieces---may not have got thru the intercooler--will know when you pull it out----put a impex rebuilt in mine--first was bad--fine now with second one----

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

I don't think this belongs in my intake just behind the MAF.



And the look at the .....comp.....What compressor???

Lots of fine aluminum particles. I will have a lot of cleaning to do.

Definitely a GT15 0281457010
What happens when Al hits the CAT?

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Jesus! What would cause a turbo to blow up like that?

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

I'm thinking it could have been the other half of whatever that bolt thing is...

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

I'm thinking it could have been the other half of whatever that bolt thing is...

Click to expand...

I think that bolt thing is one half of the impeller shaft, not a foreign object!!

Did I read that right, you found this in the intake plumbing just after the MAF? Man oh man, that thing was SHOT out of the turbo.

Clearly, you didn't have to worry about run on, this wasn't an oil seal turbo failure.

Cripes, if that's what happens to a GT15, I'd very happily replace it with a KKK. Good luck with your cleaning. I might suggest this would be a VERY good time to pull the intake manifold off for a cleaning. Not only will it give you more space to replace the turbo, you can check it for evidence of tiny bits of impeller.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Classic compressor failure. The compressor is made of aluminum, odds are surge fragmented one of the blades causing it to go our of balance. The shaft flexing that occured snapped the shaft off at the hinge point which also happens to be at the backing plate of the compressor wheel. The oil seal is also located at the point where the shaft sheared off.

There is going to be a deep gouge in the compressor housing where the out of balance compressor dug in thus snapping the shaft off and ejecting it from the turbo.

What could have caused this:

Most probable Surge, Second most probable overspeed due to modifications.

I would bet that "cricket" sounds have been heard under heavy loads such as pulling a steep grade or long acceleration.

Make sure this intake is cleaned out. The intercooler for the most part will have the remaining parts in the base so clean it from the top down with a good stoddard solvent, diesel or kerosene.

I suggest going with a KKK, I have pushed my KKK pretty darn hard and thus far its rock solid. I did overspeed one which caused a bearing issue some time back, that was my fault not the turbo or VW's...

DB

\'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

On my way to work this morning I got stuck behind a school bus. When the bus pulled off I put the pedal to the floor and the engine felt like it went to running on 2 cyls and then died completely.

Click to expand...

...That be surge that got you. Get a Dawes device and tweak the boost spikes.

DB

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

The KKK is the turbo in the A3 Jettas with AHU engines right?

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Pete (DBW) how about riggin up Hondo's MIG welder one more time and patch this baby together?

Aaawwww c-mon, where is your sense of adventure?

Chuck

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Guys,
I was trying to be funny with the pictures. Obviously the shaft broke and was shot upstream in the intake until it hit the MAF screen.

I don't have any mods on this car and have not heard any chirping under load. I have had times where I lost power completely under full throttle acceleration away from a stop light. I assumed that was air in the fuel lines or something else. Now I think it was the warning signs of turbo problems. I just changed all the vacuum lines and like the idea of this being initiated by peak boast overshoot. However, there is more investigating/disassembly to be had.

Hope to have pictures of the turbo out of the car tomorrow.

Bought a new KKK from Shane at www.industrialinjection.com for $450. It should arrive just in time for me to spend my vacation under a car.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Ok...some metal found in the bottom of my intercooler along with ~12 oz of oil. Nothing in the top. No other signs of powdered metal.

A dent in the exaust from the compressor. From the shaft??


Compressor pieces.


Housing marks.



Turbine.



Intake....yuck!!

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

The shaft failing was a secondary matter, the compressor failed first then the shaft.

Metalnerd Its funny you bring that up, I too was surprised that weld worked at Hondos!

Is it possible that something got injested into the turbo? You said you were working on the hoses and such...This could have caused the fragmenting similar to what happens with surge or overspeed.

Also verify the wastegate to open properly, if it wasnt that could have been part of the issue here, overboosting the turbo thus leading to overspeed of the compressor wheel.

Sometimes I wish we had an Ng gauge showing turbine rpms in % of rated rpm... That would be better than a boost gauge. Optical or resonant pickup? This would all but eliminate these issues since the owner would know the actual rpms of the compressor wheel. Also this would show wear because as the turbine and compressor age the lower efficiency will show itself as higher rpms for a given boost pressure.

DB

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"



I am curious about all the glazing going on here. This area should not have this much buildup in fact none at all. This shows a LOT of carbon and oil residue. The turbine wheel is completely loaded. This area should be coated with a fine black soot coating still allowing you to see every contour of the turbine wheel and housing textures.

Has this engine always used Synthetic? This looks like residues from non synthetic oils.

This is really interesting stuff!

DB

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Yes, the turbine side is very gooy. You should see the exaust pipe side of this location. I will post soon.

Maybe I injested something plastic??? I can't imagine it making it all the way to the turbine though. This may be from the 2 mile trip home from the "event". Burning rich on oil.

I use Rottella T and have been for the last 3 years. Mobil 1 before that.

The last time I had the exaust pipe off the turbo, for replacing the isolator/cat, this area was rather clean. More like what you described.

Bypass opens fine. The turbine can be pulled out 0.5", with nothing on the other end this makes sense. There does not seem to be any off-axis play in the turbine shaft, ie. not a bearing failure.

I am leaning toward peak boast overshoot and the fatigue life of aluminum.

Turbo tach sounds interesting$$. I think I will at least invest in a boast gage and the Dawes device or equivalent.

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

I suggets not using the Rotella T but instead using the Rotella Synthetic 5w40. The Passats especially had ring coking issues when using non synthetics leading to lower compression as well as very high iron and chrome in the oil analysis.

The fact you are switching over to the KKK is a very good thing. I have been EXTREMELY happy with the KKK in my car, I have installed a few in some Passats with excellent results!

A boost gauge is a good thing, also go through all the plumbing and make sure that everything is connected properly. Scan for any codes such as "Positive boost deviation" this would indicate overboost conditions at certain times.

Also you may want to retard the timing to burn off the oil in the exhaust system. Bottom of the timing belt graph for about 1,000 miles should do the trick then advance it. This will bump your TIT's about 200-300F and cook off any left over oil/soot residues. Since your not chipped don't worry about the higher temps.

With aluminum its really hard to guess what exactly caused the failure. Its always a possibility some FOD got in after you worked on the car, the good news is the repair is not gonna wipe out your wallet. Please make sure you clean out the intercooler compeletely. The last thing you need is compressor shrapnel getting ingested into the cylinders.

DB

Re: \'96 Passat \"Turbo goes boom\"

Here are picts of the other side. Couldn't this be injestion of oil and a cooler exaust and turbine temperature do to no boast. Last time I had this apart this was super clean.