Warm Up Idle Time after EGR Delete?

Powerstroke9773

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Please do if I have been screwing up I honestly would want to know. But from my grandaddy to my dad my uncle's and every a$#hole farmer I'v ever worked for would have chewed me up and down had I ever got into a diesel and just went lololol. Doesn't mean that they were all correct but I have no other evidence to prove them wrong. And to counter all of this EGR delete is not a new thing. EGR IS the new, diesels prior to say 07 never had this crap on em. At least American diesels so I see EGR as an impedence on a diesel not a improvement hence why mine is gone and shall never return. So all of my past history may be based on that fact that I've never had it nor really fully cared to understand it.

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Nero Morg

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Yeah I'll definitely ask. I know for a fact I've seen N14 Celect plus engines, and Series 60 DDEC3 engines that if you run them at fast idle for an hour or two, I've seen them have incomplete combustion, and start leaking the unburnt fuel out between the slip joints of the exhaust manifold. Weird stuff.
 

Powerstroke9773

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"fast idle" ? And a hour or 2 I agree is not good for any diesel. No matter the size.

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Nero Morg

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Fast idle, where you set the engine RPMs at about 900-1100, usually used in PTO application, building air faster, build heat faster... Ect... But we do it from time to time to check for oil leaks or coolant leaks.
 

Powerstroke9773

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Ten four ya I use it with our pumper truck old Pete I use to run our irrigation

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Nero Morg

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Well spoke with the engineer, he gave me a good rundown on warmup procedure and why it's important, however it's way too much to type up on mobile, so I'll edit the post this evening when I get home from work with his reply.
 

deathtrap

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Well spoke with the engineer, he gave me a good rundown on warmup procedure and why it's important, however it's way too much to type up on mobile, so I'll edit the post this evening when I get home from work with his reply.
The plot thickens. I hope said engineer will have input regarding the turbo vanes, etc.
 

BobnOH

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central Ohio
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Engineers, we don't need no stinkin' Engineers!
These are consumer grade cars, not overland trucks. Get in and drive, if it's super cold, wait a couple minutes. Diesel's an internal combustion motor just like the petrol models, few differences. You can idle it 5 or 10 minutes, but they just don't warm up until you drive off. I's just less friction, EGR removal and stuff only makes a small difference.
 

jayb79

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I used to worry about idling my vw diesels in the early days when they were new and under warranty but I have not worried about it in years and will regularly let my diesel idle for anywhere from 10 mins to over an hour and have never had any trouble. And this thing about they don't get warm if you let them idle is an old wifes tale, any internal combustion engine will make heat when it runs. Now if you have the blower motor cranked while it's idling that is a different story. Also, I have my coolant glow plugs wired up to override switches so I can turn them on any time, but simply loading up the alternator with headlights on bright and the rear defrost is also a way for the engine to make more heat.
 

jason_

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OK. I'll admit... On my mk7....

Last weekend I went out and started the car for an early sat morning shift, already after busting 65hrs that week..

Went back inside, effin fell asleep. 6hours and probably 3 gallons later....left the heat blasting...

All the winter moisture sure was dried up. Hahaha. Damn temp Gauge still sitting below 120 just like when I started it cold. Gauge never moved a fuzz...

Oh well. Buy another one. Make cars every day.


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Powerstroke9773

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Engineers, we don't need no stinkin' Engineers!
These are consumer grade cars, not overland trucks. Get in and drive, if it's super cold, wait a couple minutes. Diesel's an internal combustion motor just like the petrol models, few differences. You can idle it 5 or 10 minutes, but they just don't warm up until you drive off. I's just less friction, EGR removal and stuff only makes a small difference.
You know other than the compression ratio lololol which to me 19something to one vs 8-9 to 1 is a pretty big difference lol

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Powerstroke9773

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In fact the only similarities they have are the fact that they are both engines. Completely different setup case in point... Chevy took 350 blocks back in the early 90s or late 80s I can't remember off the top of my head but anyways they decided to put diesel heads on it... This lead to the biggest turd ever invented. The 1.9 TDI is more closely related to the 5.9 Cummins 12 valve of the early to mid 90s Dodge medium duty trucks and god knows how many countless other applications to include industrial generators, dump trucks, tractors, tug boat engines ... The list goes on and on. So to say that these engines are more related to a say VW 2.0 standard gas engine than a 5.9 Cummins would be foolish and uninformed. And if it's not please tell me what makes it more closely related to the gas engine than it's bigger diesel brother? And if people pull the " it's designed to be more fuel efficient card" that's fine too torque isn't the only reason for EVERY agriculture tractor being diesel FUEL ECONOMY was the #2 reason for diesel. We have owned a few gas tractors and their bad to the bone but they drink gas like it's going out of style.

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Nero Morg

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Ok now that I'm on an actual computer....
Chatting with the engineer, he said that the preferred temp to reach at the block cooling jackets would be 110F before going and driving hard. He stated that is because cold diesels have the most blowby when cold, the piston rings won't seat correctly. So that's the optimum time where you'll blow the most smoke, and gunk up your VNT/VGT's


I then asked about cold diesels and pulling loads. He said if you're going to pull a partial or full load, get it up to temp, or at least until the thermostat starts warming up first before taking off.



In both cases, he was very specific that diesels are designed to run at operating temperatures. driving them hard loaded or unloaded cold will result in unnecessary blowby, fuel consumption, and added wear to rotating parts.


Good thing most of us on this forum already follow these rules well.


I also did ask about excessively idling, he said never ever more than an hour, because the rings won't fully seat, cylinder pressure will be lowered enough to where you get incomplete combustions, and get raw fuel running to your turbo, gunking it up, and if you have newer emisions like a Diesel Particulate filter, you'll plug it up, or potentially face plug the Diesel Oxidation Catalyst.


Luckily for us, our precious MKIV's only have EGR (for those who haven't deleted yet)


Fun fact, even some agricultural equipment is starting to be fitted from factory with DPF systems and SCR's. Saw a John Deere tractor here recently that used DEF.





So to sum it all up, I think I'm going to stick with letting my engine run for 30-60 seconds before taking off, and keep it easy on the accelerator until the coolant gauge gets to at least one notch up.



Also, that Chevy diesel was a total joke. Worked on one once. Looked like they were trying to copy the Navistar 7.3 IDI. Similar pump, but ran the other direction.



And our cars and the late 80's/90's Dodge Cummins, about the only thing they had in common was the fact they used a similarly styled fuel injection pump. I wish our cars had gear to gear timing components. Course I'm sure VW didn't want to make an indestructable engine :)
 

STDOUBT

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No intent to argue, just spewing data.
From owner's manual "2001 Jetta Tips and Advice -operating your vehicle the right way booklet 3.2"
pg. 15:
Do not let your vehicle stand and warm up
When the engine is idling, it takes a very long time to warm up. Moreover, during warm-up, both engine wear and exhaust gas emissions are very high. Therefore, be ready to drive off immediately after starting the engine and avoid high engine speeds.
pg. 6:
Do not let your Diesel engine idle unnecessarily after a cold start-up. Driving off slowly will shorten the warm-up period.
It makes sense to me that wear is harder when the engine is cold. If the engine gets warmer faster by loading it down by running it down your street, then I'm keeping up my method. Get in start up, wait a few seconds and roll out. Shift up at 2500 until needle lifts above the 3 hash marks, then shift at 3000. Fully warm, cruise at 2000ish and shift at 32-3500.
I would gladly suffer a cold butt for a few miles daily if it means my engine lasts longer.
If the original assumption of this thread is hotter engine sooner = good, I would recommend to anyone with an EGR delete invest $10 in a high-temp thermostat. I've taken to running them year round.
 

Nero Morg

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No intent to argue, just spewing data.
From owner's manual "2001 Jetta Tips and Advice -operating your vehicle the right way booklet 3.2"
pg. 15:
pg. 6:
It makes sense to me that wear is harder when the engine is cold. If the engine gets warmer faster by loading it down by running it down your street, then I'm keeping up my method. Get in start up, wait a few seconds and roll out. Shift up at 2500 until needle lifts above the 3 hash marks, then shift at 3000. Fully warm, cruise at 2000ish and shift at 32-3500.
I would gladly suffer a cold butt for a few miles daily if it means my engine lasts longer.
If the original assumption of this thread is hotter engine sooner = good, I would recommend to anyone with an EGR delete invest $10 in a high-temp thermostat. I've taken to running them year round.



I forgot to mention, he said in automotive applications, to check the manual :)



Another thing we could also do is invest in snow shields for the front grille, or as I like to do, shove a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator, only covering up about 1/3 of it.
 

Powerstroke9773

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So Nero I'm still reading from your post that the engineer is still recommending a " warm up". Or am I not reading it correctly. Not a long time at idle but still not jump in and go?

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Powerstroke9773

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And I do run a frost heater when lows drop below 50 I know it's Overkill but I also know it's easier on everything being warm. And I do run the front screens on mine when it's cold but I will continue to let her idle for a couple minutes. And yeah buddy of mine had that 1st Gen Chevy diesel and that thing wouldn't get out of it's own way we hooked his to a 250 with the old school 6.9 Navistar and what a let down not even a fight. I don't quite know what they were attempting with that.

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deathtrap

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Thanks for the update Nero.
A frostheater will probably help my case loads.
I have a little one on the way and would love to have the cabin as warm as it can be for when he/she rides with Pops.

In any case, this past week I have let my car idle enough to get the idle needle to settle down a bit. I followed Bob's advice to keep the HVAC off and use as much electronics to make the car warm up faster.

I have yet to make a winter front yet. On cold mornings I noticed that even if I shifted at 2500, my car's temp needle would barely move even at the end of my 10 min commute. I hope my car's longevity won't suffer because of this but Spring is almost here and next winter I will have the frostheater.

I have also seen some build threads (rocketeer's and others) in which people would add soundproof material to things like skidplates and the bottom of engine covers / hoods to help retain heat.
Is this myth or does that actually work?
 

Nero Morg

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Any wind that can be blocked from the engine bay will indeed help it warm up faster. Mind you, not that great of a thing to do in higher temperature areas like the desert. But where you're at shouldn't be an issue year round.


As for warmup times, the way I understand it, is let it idle long enough to get some heat to the turbo, then take off keeping it easy until at least 110F is reached coolant wise, then let er rip.


As for how long you should let it idle, that's gotta depend on your local temperatures. Here in Oregon we've been sitting comfortably between 35F-45F, and when I get off work at 10PM its closer to 35F, and I only idle for about a minute before I take off. And it's a mile long straight shot up a 6 degree incline to the freeway. So far, that and not upshifting until at least 3200 it seems like my turbo vanes are actually freeing up a little.
 

Powerstroke9773

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One thing I know that works really well is a block heater and I'm not sure if anyone makes one for these cars but that would be better than a frost heater. My truck blows warm air the second it starts up while my frost heater it still takes a while to get warm. Now again I don't let it idle for a half hour my car or truck only idles long enough for me to make a cup of coffee lol I don't want people thinking I start it hours before I leave

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Rrusse11

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"not upshifting until at least 3200 it seems like my turbo vanes are actually freeing up"

Get here nicely warmed up and start taking her up to the low 4s rpm.
No need to stomp on it, just let her wind out a bit more. Your turbo
will appreciate it. You might get a bit of smoke, crap coming off your
vanes. Guarantee yah', you'll notice the performance change.

Don't be afraid to work the motor. "Clean the cobwebs out!",
AKA; the Italian tune. {:eek:)
 

Nero Morg

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So far that's what I'm trying! But don't worry, still gonna get that 17/22 :)
 

HPsenicka

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All of the TDI's in my family stable are regularly exercised... warmed up engines are routinely taken well above 4000RPM.
 

jason_

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Just because you can pull the water temp down with the heater core doesn't mean thsts bad.


The engine is just small, it doesn't make tremendous heat unless you're burning alot of fuel and oxygen, and a decent heater core with good water volume and air volume can exchange alot of btu quickly.


F'it man. Just drive and enjoy the heater in full blast. Who cares.





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