BHW: Excessive cam wear?

Kravt

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Location
Dayton, OH
TDI
2005 Passat
Hey all, I have a 2005 Passat TDI with a 5spd manual swap. I've owned the car for about a year now. Car has been running decent for ~15k mi, only recently had a major issue out of it. The symptom was a thumping sound coming from the intake. Looked around on the forum and the consensus was a worn camshaft. Took a look and sure enough, all 4 exhaust lobes are worn down past the outer chamfer (sharp). This worries me as the car has only 170000 miles on the odo. The car needed quite a bit of TLC upon purchase... It had not had the best caretaker for the past 20000mi before I bought it.



My question is twofold:

1) - Is it common for these camshafts to fail on all 4 exhaust lobes this early, even with proper upkeep?

2) - If no, is it worth it to put a new camshaft in this engine, or is it likely that the apparent mistreatment (wrong oil or long OCI) has cooked other engine components as well?


I hope to drive this car for another 150k or more. I do have a spare well cared-for BHW engine in the garage, but would rather not do engine R&R without good reason. Any input is appreciated! Thanks in advance
 

richmondvatdi

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Feb 5, 2005
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Chesterfield, Virginia
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2005 Passat Wagon 5-speed,2003 Jetta GL Wagon, 2003 Jetta GLS Wagon, 2013 CC 2.0T
Hey all, I have a 2005 Passat TDI with a 5spd manual swap. I've owned the car for about a year now. Car has been running decent for ~15k mi, only recently had a major issue out of it. The symptom was a thumping sound coming from the intake. Looked around on the forum and the consensus was a worn camshaft. Took a look and sure enough, all 4 exhaust lobes are worn down past the outer chamfer (sharp). This worries me as the car has only 170000 miles on the odo. The car needed quite a bit of TLC upon purchase... It had not had the best caretaker for the past 20000mi before I bought it.
My question is twofold:
1) - Is it common for these camshafts to fail on all 4 exhaust lobes this early, even with proper upkeep?
2) - If no, is it worth it to put a new camshaft in this engine, or is it likely that the apparent mistreatment (wrong oil or long OCI) has cooked other engine components as well?
I hope to drive this car for another 150k or more. I do have a spare well cared-for BHW engine in the garage, but would rather not do engine R&R without good reason. Any input is appreciated! Thanks in advance
Last fall, I replaced mine before the chamfer was completely gone, and did the timing belt while I was at it. I bought the cam and everything else from Franko6. He was very patient and answered a lot of my questions as I worked through the procedure. It took the better part of a weekend to do everything because I was overly cautious. (For me the biggest PITA of the whole job was really the lock carrier service position procedure). That was 8 months and 20,000 trouble-free miles ago.
 

d0u8l3m

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Location
Connecticut
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B5.5 Passat
Get a cam kit from idparts, install it, and send it. Should be good for a while after that. Should also do your timing belt too while you're at it, it's supposed to be every 60k and you're pretty close to 180k.
 

zzdiesel

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05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
I have used the BEW cam kit from Bora parts, Oregon. I used there break in oil and recommended procedure. It is thought to give extended life compared to the BHW cam, with a slightly detuned performance. That was not noticeable to me.
 

JETaah

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96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
The possibility of other collateral damage would be to the oil pump. That camshaft wear metal went somewhere and the oil pump sees it before the oil filter will. If the engine is thumping then the cam and lifters are no doubt good and worn. It is not a quick and easy job to check on the BHW. But you will probably be changing that scenario with the balance shaft module replacement or delete.
 

Kravt

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Location
Dayton, OH
TDI
2005 Passat
Thanks for all the helpful info. I'm definitely going to go with putting a new OEM camshaft in the current engine. Glad to know the engine probably won't grenade after all that work! Good point on the oil pump JETaah... I'll likely do the BSM delete with the camshaft replacement. All that's left to do is to find a big can of RT6 on sale
 

Kravt

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TDI
2005 Passat
bbob203, I wish I could say that was true, but there is quite the racket going on underhood. Considering the original owner cared enough to put the 5spd in, maybe they did some kind of early rectification like the longer hex shaft, which wouldn't have taken care of the high-strain BHW chain components. I guess we'll have to see.
 

imo000

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The possibility of other collateral damage would be to the oil pump. That camshaft wear metal went somewhere and the oil pump sees it before the oil filter will. If the engine is thumping then the cam and lifters are no doubt good and worn. It is not a quick and easy job to check on the BHW. But you will probably be changing that scenario with the balance shaft module replacement or delete.
Naah! The metal particles are so fine that they don't do much to the pump.
 

JETaah

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I agree that in a typically worn cam where the metal is powdered there won't be significant damage to the oil pump. But not in all cases.

As I posted, the "possibility" of damage is there.
If the engine is thumping then there is a possibility of a fragmented lifter. SOmetimes you can't see it well until you pull the camshaft out.

With that happening, more than powdery bits of hardened lifter metal can make their way through the pick up screen and ruin an oil pump...especially if the pump has an aluminum body.

It does not hurt to check.
 

zzdiesel

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05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
Possibly put in an analog gauge. Oil pressure good, so is pump. I find it hard to believe that someone would put in a 3rd pedal and not address the balance shaft.
 

imo000

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I agree that in a typically worn cam where the metal is powdered there won't be significant damage to the oil pump. But not in all cases.

As I posted, the "possibility" of damage is there.
If the engine is thumping then there is a possibility of a fragmented lifter. SOmetimes you can't see it well until you pull the camshaft out.

With that happening, more than powdery bits of hardened lifter metal can make their way through the pick up screen and ruin an oil pump...especially if the pump has an aluminum body.

It does not hurt to check.

The possibility for anything is always there but what you are describing is very unlikely. Heavy particles tend to settle at the bottom of the oil pan or settle in the head and don't make it into the pump. Also, when the lifter top wears through, the engine will run on 3 cylinders and people will not drive the car too long before looking for the problem. Yes, there is a chance that the pump is damaged but it is very little.
 

Kravt

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Dayton, OH
TDI
2005 Passat
Possibly put in an analog gauge. Oil pressure good, so is pump. I find it hard to believe that someone would put in a 3rd pedal and not address the balance shaft.

Good point. I like the idea of the gauge, if only for my own peace of mind after I've verified/done the BSM delete. Do you have any personal recommendations as far as implementation? I've looked around before for an oil pressure gauge, as well as an EGT gauge, but didn't easily find any elegant solutions. I like to keep the interior pretty stock looking.


Edit: I suppose that the oil pressure gauge could help identify whether or not the car has been BSM deleted as well! If the BRM kit was used I think the pressure should be higher correct? I could compare my numbers to ones posted here. Not sure about the ALH pump.
 
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Lotawood

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montana
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2005 BHW Passat sedan
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zzdiesel

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Dec 10, 2010
Location
sask. mostly now Wa.
TDI
05 passat tdi Geared BSM and Bewcam 2nd 2005 deleted ,converted and bew cam stage 2 Malone3 tune.
Apparently if you make sure your oil is at full, if you drain and measure it there is a significant difference between stock and deleted.
 

Franko6

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I think the AMC, although they claim to be made in Spain, we can prove they were not. The longevity doesn't seem to be that great, as we've seen two go out in less than 25,000 miles.

Although our cam is not the cheap way to go, doing the job once and getting exceptional mileage from a cam (also with three year warranty), and the same cam as sold by Cascade German, which is our cam, you can't go wrong. We have thousands installed and the most durable has over 450,000 additional miles. Many are over 250,000, so we built with life-expectancy in mind. btw; the reason for the additional life expectancy is we modify the cam profile from the factory 'solid lifter' profile to a true hydraulic profile. Our cam grinder when first seeing this engineering mistake said, "I don't understand what they were thinking." It's just wrong. So, I would not recommend going back with a stock cam unless you are only interested in a short cam life. Second-time stock cams rarely perform as well as the original.

Replacing the oil pump is a chore, as the subframe needs to be dropped. We also provide the BSM delete parts and the tools that make changing out the big sprocket easy. Also, there are alignment pins that are needed when bolting the subframe back into place. We loan them along with the timing belt tools, if you need those.
 

d0u8l3m

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B5.5 Passat
I think the AMC, although they claim to be made in Spain, we can prove they were not. The longevity doesn't seem to be that great, as we've seen two go out in less than 25,000 miles.
Although our cam is not the cheap way to go, doing the job once and getting exceptional mileage from a cam (also with three year warranty), and the same cam as sold by Cascade German, which is our cam, you can't go wrong. We have thousands installed and the most durable has over 450,000 additional miles. Many are over 250,000, so we built with life-expectancy in mind. btw; the reason for the additional life expectancy is we modify the cam profile from the factory 'solid lifter' profile to a true hydraulic profile. Our cam grinder when first seeing this engineering mistake said, "I don't understand what they were thinking." It's just wrong. So, I would not recommend going back with a stock cam unless you are only interested in a short cam life. Second-time stock cams rarely perform as well as the original.
Replacing the oil pump is a chore, as the subframe needs to be dropped. We also provide the BSM delete parts and the tools that make changing out the big sprocket easy. Also, there are alignment pins that are needed when bolting the subframe back into place. We loan them along with the timing belt tools, if you need those.
I'd like to see your proof on where the AMC cams are made, as idParts claims otherwise. Just looking for accurate info.
 

Kravt

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Location
Dayton, OH
TDI
2005 Passat
I think the AMC, although they claim to be made in Spain, we can prove they were not. The longevity doesn't seem to be that great, as we've seen two go out in less than 25,000 miles.

Although our cam is not the cheap way to go, doing the job once and getting exceptional mileage from a cam (also with three year warranty), and the same cam as sold by Cascade German, which is our cam, you can't go wrong. We have thousands installed and the most durable has over 450,000 additional miles. Many are over 250,000, so we built with life-expectancy in mind. btw; the reason for the additional life expectancy is we modify the cam profile from the factory 'solid lifter' profile to a true hydraulic profile. Our cam grinder when first seeing this engineering mistake said, "I don't understand what they were thinking." It's just wrong. So, I would not recommend going back with a stock cam unless you are only interested in a short cam life. Second-time stock cams rarely perform as well as the original.

Replacing the oil pump is a chore, as the subframe needs to be dropped. We also provide the BSM delete parts and the tools that make changing out the big sprocket easy. Also, there are alignment pins that are needed when bolting the subframe back into place. We loan them along with the timing belt tools, if you need those.

With all due respect, I don't think it makes financial sense for me personally to use one of your cams. Sure the AMC (Estas) one will fail, but from what I gather, I should get at least another timing belt change or two out of it. If the car still means enough to me at that point (or hasn't died of a different disease), I will likely have better funds to really have fun with the car and go the more expensive reliability/performance route.
 

Kravt

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2005 Passat
I'd like to see your proof on where the AMC cams are made, as idParts claims otherwise. Just looking for accurate info.

I'm interested in this as well. Their website says sold by AMC>Febi>Made by Estas... Located in Turkey.
 

Franko6

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The proof is my cam grinder and a group of cams from about every manufacturer, matched up side-by-side. I did that about 6 years ago and published my findings then. The AMC box I got said, "made in Spain", but that is not just unlikely, I bet the Cam manufacturer printed the boxes! I had all the cams in front of me with an expert cam grinder looking on.

My cam grinder, with 45 years experience pointed out how the cam grind showed a deviation from lateral slop in the grinding wheel arbor, that is as plain as a fingerprint. Several of the cams weren't just made in the same factory, but were made on the SAME MACHINE! As the grinding wheel climbed to the top of the lobe, the wheel would wobble in exactly the same fashion in exactly the same place. This is not coincidence, but characteristic of the machine they were made on. All of the cams were marked with the same Green YAG laser, and even that is a 'fingerprint' unto itself, how it operated.

To top it off, the cams have an excessive chamfer which 1) is a sign of where it came from and 2) increases the early failure of the cam, as reducing the width of an already too narrow cam, especially one with a solid lifter profile, begs for early failure.

What is more, one of the cam offered is touted as BILLET, and you pay even more for it. So, you all might as well know, just because it's billet doesn't make it better. No, to the contrary, for at least 6 years, ALL of the cams are billet, because the process is CHEAPER. That also, I have documented in previous posts. Look it up.

Don't really care if you believe me or not, I know the facts and I've got my proof.

I understand your theory of cam replacement, Kravt. Problem is, if you replace it too often, it gets expensive. And, if not caught in time, can cost you a cylinder head rebuild and all the cam and lifter crap eventually eats up your oil pump. That adds to the time and cost of the build. All that said, the engine is becoming dated, and I know it. Diminishing returns...

Some would rather just do it once. Some just want another 50k. Some just don't care. I guess you are in the 'just replace it again' crowd. Good luck with that theory. I prefer my mantra, "Do It Once and Do It Right".
 

Franko6

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I forgot to mention...

Because of the tension in the Mid-East, and Turkey, Kolbenschmidt and Febi have returned like dogs to their vomit and are selling Chinese cams.

The last time Kolbenschmidt bought cams from China they were sneaked into our cam grinders hands, they asked, "Hey, what's with the blue boxes?" As we previously have been moving an alternate cam to them. I said, "Check them." Turns out the cams were not properly hardened and the lobes were Rc44, with the journals Rc20. Should be 58-61Rc... I told my grinder to send them all back and blew the whistle on KS for selling CRAP. Now, they are back doing the same thing again. Maybe this time, they are checking the hardness. You think?

Yes, I have a history and I do know what I'm talking about.
 

d0u8l3m

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B5.5 Passat
I stopped reading after "6 years ago"...I see no valid proof here.

Manufacturers change processes all the time...no one is asking about garbage like Kolbenschmidt. You even posted a long thread about how everything is made billet now a days...now the billet stuff is crap too?

Do you know what is happening in industry today, or are you just trying to promote your own product?

"Don't really care if you believe me or not, I know the facts and I've got my proof."...you must not realize how niche this market actually is, does word of mouth not mean anything anymore? I'd honestly love to get a "performance" cam but not from someone who gets defensive about when us OCD people ask questions.

If Boeing, or Airbus asks my company about quality/reliability do you think we would get away with telling them, here's some test data from 6 years ago and that's it? Probably not, so thanks for letting us know where the industry was back then, but we want information on where the industry is now.
 
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auntulna

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05 GLS Passat wagon, mit panzer plate
By all means, "save" your money. You'll need more of it later on.



These heads and cams were last made for 2006, I think. You're not going to find Boeing/Airbus levels of documentation on them. Also, auto parts sales is a worldwide business with lots of marginal sellers with marginal products.



Eventually, you'll end up thinking or believing something or someone. Why not put some confidence in someone who handles the product everyday, and has actually modified it to be better than OEM?
 

Kravt

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Dayton, OH
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2005 Passat
I understand your theory of cam replacement, Kravt. Problem is, if you replace it too often, it gets expensive. And, if not caught in time, can cost you a cylinder head rebuild and all the cam and lifter crap eventually eats up your oil pump. That adds to the time and cost of the build. All that said, the engine is becoming dated, and I know it. Diminishing returns...

Some would rather just do it once. Some just want another 50k. Some just don't care. I guess you are in the 'just replace it again' crowd. Good luck with that theory. I prefer my mantra, "Do It Once and Do It Right".

What you said here begins to address the problem. In the terms of the pocket of a money-conscious grad student such as myself, the cost of using a high value part that will likely outlast the life of my car is not an effective use of my funds at the moment. You state that you've seen a couple camshafts fail quickly, and I do not doubt this. I am in fact taking a risk on putting a lower quality camshaft in my vehicle, but there is simply not enough data to support saying it will most likely only run for 50k. At the same time, there is not data to say that will definitely last for 160k+ either. I feel that it is reasonable to expect that it will last me around 80k at minimum, and if it doesn't I guess I'll eat my words. In 80k, there's plenty that could go wrong with the car in that time to make it financially nonviable, especially considering it is already nearly 15 years old. If the crankshaft does actually go at 80k, and the rest of the car has stood up to the test of time, I will likely do a performance cam. This is due in part to the fact that I will likely have a thicker wallet at that time. But the car standing up well over the years is not guaranteed... there is a healthy chance that even the AMC camshaft will outlast the useful life of the car. I am all for making and buying things that last, but I can't say that I support wasting money, especially when funds are limited and that money could be better used somewhere else.



However, aside from this current conversation I would like to ask you a neutral question just out of my own interest. In your opinion, what are the measurable values (surface hardness, geometry, roughness, material grade, etc) that most impact the longevity of a camshaft?
 

JETaah

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96 B4V, 1999.5 jettaIV,2005 BEW Beetle
It might have a lot to do with how the owner gets his/her maintenance done. I mounted one of the aftermarket cams per the owner's request into a BRM and 45K miles later it was significantly worn...sharp lobe edges.

The owner said he took it to the VW for oil changes and figured how could he do better than that. Well, as some may know, the dealer routinely uses 5W30 oil unless you specifically ask for 5W40. That I am sure did nothing to help the situation.

This has happened to one of the upgraded cams with the improved profile as well but with closer to 100K miles on the cam.
 

Franko6

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Dou8l3m,

I get what you are saying. I don't mean to come off as defensive, but I don't need acerbic either.

I do have a history. I know the market. I'm limited to what exactly I can say due to 'Vendor Rules'. There is only one time I obliterated those rules to blow JBMorrison out of the water for selling knock-off Bosch nozzles. Last day he was on the club was after my post was put up. I am proud to defend the TDIClub. But I cannot directly attack another vendor for a dubious product, so the rules cut both ways. They are to protect both the good and the bad, just not the blatant.

On the other hand, I have been noted as someone who is deeply involved, do this for a living and am an innovator and producer. Word of Mouth drives my business, as my 'Ma and Pa' shop has produced a lot of great work with very few failures... Thousands of cylinder heads and engines. We have developed our own design for superior H-beam rods, performance upgrades for pistons, exclusive performance piston rings, and that is the tip of the iceberg...

So, when someone comes out disputing our relatively old posts, you could say it's par for the course. But we also do keep current. Can't always lay out every proof or I get banned... vendor rules.

And when you say OCD, my comment is "No, it's CDO... I have to alphabetize it..." And a bit neurotic to boot... I channel my idiosyncrasies.

I've become used to being attacked, like the first time I changed the Bentley book's numbers for a ALH cam sprocket torque from 33ft lbs to 45, you'd have thought I made sacrilege, going against the 'bible'.

Another example: You realize the Bentley makes another mistake on the ALH/BEW piston/ cylinder wall dimensions? They use a 79.46mm piston. It should be 79.44mm. So, yes, I am one to be accurate and in this business, and accuracy counts. I get people upset when I present what to me is obvious.

To lay the question of 'Billet' to rest... I did not say billet is bad. I said it is cheaper.
Your engine is built by the bean counters. So, for them, cheaper is much better.

The original cams in your PD motor as it came from VW were cast steel cams. About the same time, 6-7 years ago for when you don't like my data lag... All of the companies producing cams went to the process of billet for the cost. The difference between billet and cast cam, besides cost, is the billet is linear hardening, whereas the cast cams are directional hardening. That is, when the steel is poured, the tendency is for the pour to freeze first, against the walls of the mold, causing austinetic grain structure, which some may feel is superior. But in our case, directional or linear grain structure makes little difference.

The big advantage of billet is that the cam can be rough-cut machined, ready for hardening in minutes with the modern machining technique. The Landis custom cam cutting machine our cam grinder has in production now can spit a cam out in minutes. Compare the process to the cast process. From melting a pot full of metal, mold production and it's dangers, to prep and additional machine work needed before induction hardening, billet produced cams win hands down.

But do not use the moniker 'Billet' to fool your customers into buying a more expensive cam that is produced EXACTLY the SAME as every other cam producer makes. They are virtually all billet, with a very few exceptions.

As for what we produce as a marketable cam, we know how it works. Great success story. As for AMC, I can only say what I know to be true. We track and poll a lot of information and either can't or won't share it all.

Sometimes, it boils down to who do you trust. I think the bitter truth is better than a sweet lie.
 
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Franko6

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Jettahh and I have a long history. The cam of mine that failed is an exception. I never could determine the reason. It might have been one of the Chinese cams that wasn't hardened correctly that 'slipped through the cracks'. We did replace the kit under warranty.
 

JETaah

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Jettahh and I have a long history. The cam of mine that failed is an exception. I never could determine the reason. It might have been one of the Chinese cams that wasn't hardened correctly that 'slipped through the cracks'. We did replace the kit under warranty.

I was actually referring to a different case (100K miles worn past the lobe chamfer) where the dealer was using 5W30 507 oil in their car and the owners did not know it. I caught it on the invoice that they showed me.


The first aftermarket cam in my previous post was an AMC (45K failure but with 5W30 oil).
 
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Franko6

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...However, aside from this current conversation I would like to ask you a neutral question just out of my own interest. In your opinion, what are the measurable values (surface hardness, geometry, roughness, material grade, etc) that most impact the longevity of a camshaft?
Kravt,

I certainly can appreciate the budget. Been there... done that.

The original cam was poorly designed. One of the most common responses from the cam companies that I approached to design my cam was, "I don't understand what they were thinking." The engineers were speaking directly to the point that the cam profile is a solid lifter profile. That is very hard on the hydraulic lifter, slapping the lifter open, instead what a smoother hydraulic profile demands. The solid lifter rise is too flat and sharp.

The second issue is that the aftermarket cams have a larger chamfer than the OEM cams. If the issue is already a cam width that is too narrow, why would the manufacturer further diminish the width by cutting a larger chamfer? We have seen chamfers on some of the low-end aftermarket cams reduce the lobe width another 10%. That lends itself to early failure.

Diminishing returns... The age of the vehicle does account for a reduction in the number of cams we continue to sell. However, the viability of the engine is for dramatic longevity, as we have several exceeding 500,000 miles. Our own BHW Passat sedan is purring along with almost 200,000 miles and since my entire rebuild of the engine, as we bought with a blown engine, is purring along nicely. Rebuilt at 59,000.

I expect another 250,000 (and more) without issue, besides normal maintenance.
 

Franko6

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Dou8,

I went to look up two cams that I still have from the time I did my comparison. Dated as they are, some things don't change. Liars tend to continue to lie.

I am still in possession of an AMC and a Febi cam from the same era that my cam grinder made the determination that virtually all PD cams are billet cams. I know things change. They may now say they are made in Spain, but are now made in China. Who knows?

The box AMC claims is made 'In Spain', when the Febi, plainly marked, 'Made in Turkey'.

PD Cam Comparing Febi and AMC They are identical. Note the finish of the side of the cam profile and the cam face.

Note the side cut between the injector lobe and the cam lobes..

Detail of the tandem pump drive end, down to the finish and the dents..

A look directly into the sprocket end..

The sides of both cams and their woodruff key slot. If you covered the name, you could not tell them apart. The look is precisely the same.

In these two cams, the chatter from a stone that was not dressed properly is displayed equally into the product, for both the Febi and the AMC cam. I don't have the photo magnification to clearly show that, but examining under 10x will display it. This chatter must be worn away before you can expect the proper mating of cam and lifter to happen. Initially, the cam roughness must be ground off by the Nitrided cam follower.

Contrary to that chatter issue, our cams are finished with a 30 micron paper to smooth to a r.a. 3-4 finish...smooth as glass, then parkerized for an improved break-in.

Ok, so let's assume AMC was telling a lie for the time I bought this cam. What's the chances they would lie again? We once bought injector machinery that was 'Made in Turkey' only to find in truth, it was 'Made in China'.

Whatever your take might be, we continue to monitor effectiveness of our cam and the competition. Generally, you only hear of the failures, but from out personal use of an aftermarket cam when price has become an issue for one of our customers and the number of this particular AMC cam, life expectancy has been comparatively short.

We stand behind our modified cam. Sure, it's not the 'cheap' way to go, but it's a well known saying,"You get what you pay for."
 
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