Aero comparison

ukemike

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Jun 2, 2008
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Bay Area, CA
TDI
not yet
I'm considering getting a TDI. I may post another thread with all the details of my situation, but here I want to ask about aerodynamic drag. I was able to find on wikipedia that the New Beetle has a stock Cd of 0.38. That's pretty awful. I'm less likely to get a beetle because of the smaller trunk. So between the Golf and the Jetta which has the lower Cd? I'm guessing the Jetta because of the 'shelf' that is the trunk. Since they both have the same cross sectional area the Cd is what really matters. Does anyone have any figures?
 

TornadoRed

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Aug 3, 2003
Location
West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
Since it sounds like you are probably going to buy a used TDI, the coefficient of drag is the least significant factor to consider. Pay attention instead to the maintenance record and general condition of the vehicle. Avoid 2003-and-earlier TDIs with automatic transmissions, and avoid vehicles that have ever been run on waste veggie oil (WVO).
 

ukemike

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Jun 2, 2008
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Thanks tornado, I've been lurking here and reading for a while now. I will be extra careful about the maintenance history. Auto-tranny isn't even an option. Even if they got better milage I would never have one. I can't stand them. I also know about the NB with the crazy wing. Cd=0.28 right? Mostly I'm curious about the Jetta vs. Golf drag and if the difference is big or negligable.


I lead toward the Golf because I had an 86 Golf (toughest car I'll ever have) and I had a 92 Golf (it was a let down) and now I have an 04 GTI that I like a lot. But I would consider a jetta. I'm an engineer, I like having all the data before I decide.
 

jettawreck

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Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
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2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
I believe the Jetta wagons had the best hwy mpg of the fleet. Long and smooth roof line is best. The extra weight knocks it down in the city estimate, so its probably a wash. Depends on what the majority of your drive is, I guess. A NB in the city would do good as the aero drag isn't such a liability until the speed increases.
 

njkayaker

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Joined
Apr 19, 2006
jettawreck said:
I believe the Jetta wagons had the best hwy mpg of the fleet. Long and smooth roof line is best.
The typical differences in CD between the sedan and wagon versions of the same car are tiny. Like 0.01, with the wagons being worse (and racks don't help). The CD of the current Jetta is 0.30 (if I recall).

The long, flat roof in the wagon is a problem because it cuts off too abruptly, too high in the rear. The Golf has the same problem.

What you want is a roof that isn't flat but drops off gradually. The newer Jetta wagon has a better roof for aerodynamics than the prior version.

The sedan would be better than the wagon or the Golf because it better matches a Kamm back design. the Prius is a good example of a Kamm back.

Look up "Kamm back" in Wikipediea.

Sedan:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100352548/specs.html 38 mpg / 46 mpg

Wagon:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/volkswagen/jetta/100351182/specs.html 36 mpg / 47 mpg

While the EPA number for the wagon is 47 instead of 46, there are things other than CD that explains the insignificant difference. This difference could be exaggerated by rounding (the EPA number are highly unlikely to be exact integer. It's also possiible that the difference is simple variation in test results.

Here is the indication that differences CDs at this level don't make a big impact on MPG.

Beetle:
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2004/volkswagen/newbeetle/100359170/specs.html 38 mpg / 46 mpg

CDs of the prior models:

Wagon CD: 0.32
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2005/volkswagen/jetta/gl_wagon/735/specifications/index.html

Sedan CD: 0.30
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2002/volkswagen/jetta/specifications/index.html

Golf CD: 0.31
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2003/volkswagen/golf/specifications/index.html

========================

A manual transmission would have much more (better) impact on your mpg than the tiny differences in CD.
 
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ukemike

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njkayaker said:

That's what I was looking for. I didn't know the motortrend site had so many specs for old models. What this tells me is that the difference between the jetta and the golf isn't enough to overcome my preferance for the hatchback.

Unfortunately I find about 5 jetta tdis for sale for every one golf. Even worse 4 of 5 have automatics, which even if it weren't for the economy and reliability disadvantages I would never buy an auto tranny. In fact the only time you'll ever see me driving a slushbox is when I'm in a rental car. It seems like in the past that the people who bought diesels are the same crowd that bought ATs.
 

njkayaker

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Joined
Apr 19, 2006
ukemike said:
I didn't know the motortrend site had so many specs for old models.
Once they have the data, it's cheap to keep. Plus, they really have it to sell used cars.

ukemike said:
Unfortunately I find about 5 jetta tdis for sale for every one golf.
VW sells many more Jettas than Golfs. The TDI was available for more years in the Jetta than the Golf. It probably would be easier to find a Jetta TDI wagon (the perfect car!) an a TDI Golf.

ukemike said:
It seems like in the past that the people who bought diesels are the same crowd that bought ATs.
I suspect that manual diesels have a higher demand. I'd guess that the percentage of manual transmissions in the diesels was higher than for the gasers (eg: 50/50 instead of 10/90).

ukemike said:
What this tells me is that the difference between the jetta and the golf isn't enough to overcome my preferance for the hatchback.
You really can almost ignore the CD for any normal-looking car (eg, not the Honda Element or the Beetle). They are all very close. Even the Prius, a car they spent a fair amount of effort tweeking, isn't that different (0.27) and it's only a bit better than the Camry.

ukemike said:
I'm guessing the Jetta because of the 'shelf' that is the trunk.
The "high" trunk helps the CD a bit (I suspect). The trunk can't be too low or too high (like it is in the wagon and the Golf).
 
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lovemybug

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Mar 11, 2007
Location
SE Wisconsin
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2002 Red Beetle
njkayaker said:
You really can almost ignore the CD for any normal-looking car (eg, not the Honda Element or the Beetle).

What's not normal looking about my Beetle? Just becuase it's more distinctive than your Jetta is no reason to dump on my Beetle. Besides, I like the way it smiles at me when I walk up to it.:D ;)
 

TornadoRed

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West Des Moines (formerly St Paul)
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2003 Jetta TDI wagon, silver; 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, indigo blue; 2003 Golf GL 5-spd, red (PARTED); 2003 Golf GLS 5-spd, indigo blue (SOLD); 2003 Jetta TDI wagon, Candy White (SOLD)
ukemike said:
It seems like in the past that the people who bought diesels are the same crowd that bought ATs.
Not exactly. It's the people who bought TDIs with AT's that are selling them. Those who bought TDIs with MT's are keeping them.
 

njkayaker

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Apr 19, 2006
lovemybug said:
What's not normal looking about my Beetle? Just becuase it's more distinctive than your Jetta is no reason to dump on my Beetle. Besides, I like the way it smiles at me when I walk up to it.:D ;)
It's not normal looking! That's why you like it! Enjoy it.
 

Mrrogers1

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Omaha NEEEBRASKA
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2011 Golf TDI 6MT, 2011 Jetta TDI DSG, 2015 Golf Sportwagen S TDI DSG
Does anyone really know if the spoilers help or hinder the CD enough to change MPG's in the Jetta family?

Might be a little OT but it "somewhat" pertains to the OP's question.
 

njkayaker

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Apr 19, 2006
Mrrogers1 said:
Does anyone really know if the spoilers help or hinder the CD enough to change MPG's in the Jetta family?

Might be a little OT but it "somewhat" pertains to the OP's question.
It appears a "spoiler" might help (a little) with the Beetle (Ernie Rodgers might be providing some evidence for that but it's hard to say).

Rodger's "spoiler" probably works (if it works) because it makes the Bug look more like the sedan.

I suspect a spoiler would do much to the CD of the sedan.

The typical purpose of a spoiler (it appears) is to increase downward force (not to decrease the coefficeint of drag).

Note that car manufacturers, with their multi-million dollar R&D budgets have probably looked at ways of decreasing CD that don't have severe drawbacks. (Keep in mind that the Beetls's shape is all about looks.)

Look up Kammback.
 
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SilverD

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Jul 8, 2005
Location
Los Angeles
TDI
Silver 2002 Golf
Properly designed spoilers can reduce both lift at the tail and drag. They do this by "spoiling" the airflow as it goes down the rear of the car. This helps the air that goes over the top of the car and down the rear to cleanly separate from the vehicle. Otherwise it creates drag and lift inducing vortexes and eddies at the rear of the car. This is why gunk and grime get deposited on the rear of a car driven in rain - the air is rotating behind the car and creating a negative pressure area.

The Beetle (both old and new) has a poor shape at the rear, in that there is nothing to encourage this airflow separation, so a spoiler is especially helpful on it. Notice also that Porsche has through the years added many different kinds of spoilers to the 911 and made the tail progressively taller to remedy this problem. A long, long tapering fastback is in many ways the perfect shape for a car's rear, but in the real world it would be impractical to have such a long tail and in any event skin friction between the air and long tail would begin to outweight the advantages of it. That was the genesis of the Kamm tail, and the principles still hold true today.

I would wonder if the revised for '04 trunklid on the Jetta sedan helped the drag a bit, in that it has a small lip at the trailing edge which should promote airflow separation. It often doesn't take much to do the job at normal highway speeds.
 

EddyKilowatt

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Mar 1, 2006
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Carmel Valley CA
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2003 Golf GL 5M
I wonder if the visor-shaped spoiler seen above the rear window of some Golfs (GTIs?), as well as many other hatchbacks, has any value in reducing overall drag? To the casual eye it seems as if it would promote the clean flow separation mentioned above.

Eddy
 
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