2002 ALH 5 speed with metal in oil

c.Lunn · Oct 15, 2019

I bought this car for a donor for a MK1 swap.
The metal shards pictured were found in oil when it was drained and in pan when it was pulled. Shards are ferrous.
The odometer reads 250,000 https://imgur.com/a/RgLdzcm . Seller claims the car was tow behind a motor home most of its life. The seats and pedals do not look worn like there is anything close to 250,000 miles, but I am a skeptic in all things unverified.
Oil was in intercooler.
Car idled, started and drove normally.

I would appreciate input into what you all think would cause this lifter problem, or if it is normal for an ALH to need a cam/lifters with a few hundred thousand miles (assuming it was towed 50,000)
When a ALH goes in the MK1 I want to have confidence I can drive across country if I want.
I am open to all options...
Rebuild from crank up, sell it and find something else, or replace the cam and drive it.
I dont want to spend money I dont have to, but I also dont want to have reliability issues when it's all done. I would like to be able to put 150,000 miles or so on it.
Can I pull the main caps and rod bearings one at a time to inspect the bearings. Will that cause any problems? Can I just retourque them and all is well?
If anyone has a suggestion for a detail oriented TDI engine builder in the mid west I would appreciate it. I'm possibly looking for builder-not interested in big power, but reliability.
Thanks for any help!
Clint

WildChild80 · Oct 15, 2019

The miles don't show up unless the ECU is powered on. If it's showing 250k that's in addition to however far it was flat towed, if proper maintenance was done on the gearbox and adult driven, it'll be in good shape.

As for the metal in the oil, that could be a sign of a bad moon rising.

Your pic didn't work/load

You're not too far from franko6, he'd be able to give you some sound advice.

Frank's TDI or something like that is his website...Google it

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c.Lunn · Oct 15, 2019

WildChild80 said:
The miles don't show up unless the ECU is powered on. If it's showing 250k that's in addition to however far it was flat towed, if proper maintenance was done on the gearbox and adult driven, it'll be in good shape.

As for the metal in the oil, that could be a sign of a bad moon rising.

Your pic didn't work/load

You're not too far from franko6, he'd be able to give you some sound advice.

Frank's TDI or something like that is his website...Google it

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Thanks wildchild. I believe my photos link is corrected.

WildChild80 · Oct 15, 2019

I'd pull the front cam cap and see if the bearing surface in the head is ok.

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c.Lunn · Oct 15, 2019

WildChild80 said:
The miles don't show up unless the ECU is powered on. If it's showing 250k that's in addition to however far it was flat towed, if proper maintenance was done on the gearbox and adult driven, it'll be in good shape.

As for the metal in the oil, that could be a sign of a bad moon rising.

Your pic didn't work/load

You're not too far from franko6, he'd be able to give you some sound advice.

Frank's TDI or something like that is his website...Google it

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That is excellent info. I have been seeing "frank06" pop up in forums, but never knew the name of his shop. He is very much within driving range.

JB05 · Oct 15, 2019

Another expert is Oilhammer also in St. Louis.

WildChild80 · Oct 15, 2019

We need to organize a meet and greet one day...

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BobnOH · Oct 15, 2019

Frank is at the other side of the state and I believe OH works at a dealership. Don't know if he does "side work". But for your purposes it would be worth having him evaluate that motor.
Those metal shards look nothing like what I had when my bearings went. Once you get that crap cleaned out, replace the oil cooler.

jokila · Oct 15, 2019

Pull the crank sensor and see how much you have in the way of shavings. It's got a magnetic pickup.

c.Lunn · Oct 15, 2019

jokila said:
Pull the crank sensor and see how much you have in the way of shavings. It's got a magnetic pickup.

Will do. Thank you.

c.Lunn · Oct 15, 2019

BobnOH said:
Frank is at the other side of the state and I believe OH works at a dealership. Don't know if he does "side work". But for your purposes it would be worth having him evaluate that motor.
Those metal shards look nothing like what I had when my bearings went. Once you get that crap cleaned out, replace the oil cooler.

The oil cooler needing changed is related to my other concern: does it seem reasonable that the shavings are between the crank and bearings?

c.Lunn · Oct 15, 2019

WildChild80 said:
We need to organize a meet and greet one day...

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That sounds great!

Powder Hound · Oct 16, 2019

You might have particles in the bearings, but the only way I know of to check is to disassemble them and see. Checking a main or con rod bearing will require new bolts as they are one-time use. Checking the cam isn't so bad because those bolts you can re-use.

If you want to accept the risk (i.e. if the cam journals look good, assume the rest are OK, replace cam and lifters, and go with that), you can check the cam, since you'll want to replace the cam and lifters in any case. The cam does not have separate bearings in the journals - it just rides in the aluminum of the head and would show embedded particles in the cam journal bearings as well as anything else. There should only be particles that are small enough to make it past the oil filter. Possibly such particles would be embedded in the aluminum but they would probably scratch the cam journals as well.

If you're looking at the crank journals, the scratches would tell you if the damage is there.

It is also possible that a replacement engine from car-parts.com (i.e. junkyard engine) would be easier, faster, and cheaper than an engine build.

Good luck on figuring out what to do!

Cheers,

PH

c.Lunn · Oct 19, 2019

I appreciate the responses. They have all been helpful.

For now progress is stopped. I ordered the diesel geek timing tool for digging in to the top end, and had a second thought...if I contact the person I bought it from before pulling engine internals he may work with me.

Surprisingly, it appears he is willing to work with me towards a by back or cash my way for repairs. I am in St. Louis and he is in Boulder.

I also contacted Frank06's shop. He was out for a few days so next week I will discuss a crank up rebuild and compare that with what the seller offers me in help.

c.Lunn · Oct 19, 2019

...it is interesting...most of the threads I have found where folks inquire about a rebuild there seems to be a lot of push back. I understand these engines will run for 600,000 miles if maintained appropriately, but am I missing something? I've been around restoration/performance my whole life and sometimes the engine just needs taken apart. Thanks

Nero Morg · Oct 19, 2019

Time. Money. Craftsmanship. It's only worth it if the car is super clean and you plan to keep it for years. Otherwise it's cheaper and easier to just buy another car or buy another used engine.

WildChild80 · Oct 19, 2019

Nero Morg said:
Time. Money. Craftsmanship. It's only worth it if the car is super clean and you plan to keep it for years. Otherwise it's cheaper and easier to just buy another car or buy another used engine.

I plan on the long haul and I pulled a used engine...it was a super clean auto crashed in the rear...

I like autos because most don't make it to their 250k birthday...and the IP also

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Powder Hound · Oct 19, 2019

Yup - jewels waiting for collection...

PH

c.Lunn · Oct 19, 2019

Nero Morg said:
Time. Money. Craftsmanship. It's only worth it if the car is super clean and you plan to keep it for years. Otherwise it's cheaper and easier to just buy another car or buy another used engine.

That makes sense. They are still new enough to find good used ones. Too bad I didnt find one ??

Nero Morg · Oct 19, 2019

c.Lunn said:
That makes sense. They are still new enough to find good used ones. Too bad I didnt find one ??

They're out there. But now you know what to look for, and something to think about, if you want to keep this car or not.

c.Lunn · Oct 20, 2019

Nero Morg said:
They're out there. But now you know what to look for, and something to think about, if you want to keep this car or not.

The only reason I bought the car was to use the engine and transmission for am MK1 swap. The plan was to pull the ECU, harness, pedal and see what else I could make work.

If I salvage this car and start looking again I'm not sure how many sellers would let me drain and strain the oil and pull the valve cover before purchase. After all this I would also want to pull the pan, and I seriously doubt a seller would allow that.

At this point I think I will pull the engine and take it to Frank06 to have it gone through and a fresh head put on. Does Frank also do lower ends?

The folks I bought it from are still talking to me and I am reporting to them with pictures what I find. So far it appears as though they will kick some money my way. (Buying it back would be best but I am not sure about that happening) I dont want to make a move until I hear from them one way or the other.

I want an engine that is reliable, efficient and a little peppy for years to come, and having a person like Frank at the core of the drivetrain design seems like a good thing. From what I hear about Frank i assume if I am a customer he will guide me on things like turbo, intake, 5th gear ratio, tuners, etc., and obviously engine design.

WildChild80 · Oct 20, 2019

If you start over, it's a period of rediscovery, if you shovel up the parts, have Frank help you get it together, you'll have a mill that will probably outlast the mk1 shell and give you that torque we all love and the FE that is the giant cherry on top.

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c.Lunn · Oct 20, 2019

WildChild80 said:
If you start over, it's a period of rediscovery, if you shovel up the parts, have Frank help you get it together, you'll have a mill that will probably outlast the mk1 shell and give you that torque we all love and the FE that is the giant cherry on top.

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I appreciate that response...it is not an opinion about what to do, but an overview of what lies before me.

WildChild80 · Oct 20, 2019

The wallet dictates some moves, I wish I would have done more before I retired, my job after the Navy doesn't pay as much and the budget is much thinner...one day, one or all of my TDIs will be ripped with a Frank's head.

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Prairieview · Oct 20, 2019

Personally, I see the concept of putting an alh in a 1973-designed Mk. I body akin to looking up a dead horse's pa-toot. Very much like injecting a large amount of Viagra into a dead chicken.
And, yes, I came from that era and paid my dues on/in a bunch of Mk. I and Mk. II bodies. I still own and use 4 of the latter cars.
The Mk. II's were a large leap ahead of the original unstable, poorly suspended control-arms-lagged-directly-into-the-unit body along with super-wimpy rear beam Mk. I cars. The original cars were pretty well maxed-out simply using a warmed-up version of the light engines they came with.....let alone installing a heavier and more muscular alh and it's components.
In all reality, rebuilding an alh is much easier and more straightforward than dealing with the older intermediate-shafted pre-combustion-chambered engines ever were. I have NO idea why this forum constantly pushes this whole helpless concept that successful rebuilding of these engines is only achieved by some sort of divine intervention.
The difficult part of dealing with the alh is all the ancillary crap which is hung-on these engines to make them run.
I was never so happy the day I sold-off my last Mk. I car. I had spent a LOT of time doing the Aztec-sacrifice thing driving them around (one I had 435,000 miles on when I let it go).
If you decide to actually grow a pair and take-on rebuilding one of these newer engines with your own little hands, you will develop new skills and knowledge and take some pride on what you EARNED.
The Mk. IV bodies are so much more road and crash worthy that the thought of venturing out in a Mk. I is......laughable, really. Just me two.

Nero Morg · Oct 20, 2019

I had a long discussion with Frank about a potential engine build. He said build it as close as you can to 200hp, any more, you'll run into reliability and longevity issues. Asv pistons, forged rods, Frank doing all the work, port/polish, bottom end build, essentially a ready to go short block, would be $2700 roughly. You then have turbo, IP, nozzles + building, and tuning to go. I won't say do or don't, just throwing the numbers out there. If you do a build, it'd be interesting to see if you decide to share it.

Powder Hound · Oct 21, 2019

c.Lunn said:
... After all this I would also want to pull the pan, and I seriously doubt a seller would allow that...

They will, if they want to sell it. You can get away with a lot when you're looking over a car to buy. You have to bring whatever it takes to put it back together, of course. But if you have the time, then you do it. The seller knows that if you break it you buy it at that point.

Cheers,

PH

c.Lunn · Oct 21, 2019

Prairieview said:
Personally, I see the concept of putting an alh in a 1973-designed Mk. I body akin to looking up a dead horse's pa-toot. Very much like injecting a large amount of Viagra into a dead chicken.
And, yes, I came from that era and paid my dues on/in a bunch of Mk. I and Mk. II bodies. I still own and use 4 of the latter cars.
The Mk. II's were a large leap ahead of the original unstable, poorly suspended control-arms-lagged-directly-into-the-unit body along with super-wimpy rear beam Mk. I cars. The original cars were pretty well maxed-out simply using a warmed-up version of the light engines they came with.....let alone installing a heavier and more muscular alh and it's components.
In all reality, rebuilding an alh is much easier and more straightforward than dealing with the older intermediate-shafted pre-combustion-chambered engines ever were. I have NO idea why this forum constantly pushes this whole helpless concept that successful rebuilding of these engines is only achieved by some sort of divine intervention.
The difficult part of dealing with the alh is all the ancillary crap which is hung-on these engines to make them run.
I was never so happy the day I sold-off my last Mk. I car. I had spent a LOT of time doing the Aztec-sacrifice thing driving them around (one I had 435,000 miles on when I let it go).
If you decide to actually grow a pair and take-on rebuilding one of these newer engines with your own little hands, you will develop new skills and knowledge and take some pride on what you EARNED.
The Mk. IV bodies are so much more road and crash worthy that the thought of venturing out in a Mk. I is......laughable, really. Just me two.

Thanks for the reply.

You remind me I am on the internet.

I agree with the "divine intervention" that seems to be placed on TDI stuff. Almost anyone can be a great engine builder, but the vast majority of people dont have the mental capacity (patience, perfectionism and sense of duty), experience or perspective. The same goes for body shops.

c.Lunn · Oct 21, 2019

Nero Morg said:
I had a long discussion with Frank about a potential engine build. He said build it as close as you can to 200hp, any more, you'll run into reliability and longevity issues. Asv pistons, forged rods, Frank doing all the work, port/polish, bottom end build, essentially a ready to go short block, would be $2700 roughly. You then have turbo, IP, nozzles + building, and tuning to go. I won't say do or don't, just throwing the numbers out there. If you do a build, it'd be interesting to see if you decide to share it.

This is helpful information. Thank you. I can probably swing something in that neighborhood. The idea is to have a daily driver that is mechanically reliable like a new car, but for less money and something I can maintain.

The more power the better if it doesn't hurt reliability or much efficiency. I was thinking max around 150 hp. If Frank were to give an all clear to the lower end I would stay stock.

c.Lunn · Oct 21, 2019

Powder Hound said:
They will, if they want to sell it. You can get away with a lot when you're looking over a car to buy. You have to bring whatever it takes to put it back together, of course. But if you have the time, then you do it. The seller knows that if you break it you buy it at that point.
Cheers,
PH

That's true. I'm the one with the money buying.

2002 ALH 5 speed with metal in oil

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