WVO-induced engine damage/oil consumption

sdeck · Nov 13, 2009

I posted this in the fuels/lubricant section as an answer to a question I posed last year.

Short version is that 42K of WVO w/ a greasecar kit did signficant damage to my engine. See the long version and pics here:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=213288

vwcampin · Nov 13, 2009

Sdeck, thanks for posting. Pics are blocked at work, so I will have to see the carnage later. It sucks that this happened, but I commend you for staying around and keeping everyone updated even though it was bad news and involved WVO.

In before the post flurry starts.

TurbineWhine · Nov 13, 2009

My "son just bought a car from an individual in Wilmington DE. Since he knows the risks of a greasecar, he asked the buyer if it was or ever had been a greasecar. The owner said no, that's a bad idea. They drove from NC to DE to buy the car. He bought the car and brought it home. Turns out the TB had been done with improper torquing of the engine bracket bolts and the TB system was destroyed on the way home to NC when the motor almost fell out of the car. Turns out the cam and lifters were destroyed. Turns out when I inspect the car, all the evidence was there of an Elsbett dual tank grease system that had been removed. Now we find out the block is ruined by stuck rings from the grease. I did call the owner who denied any knowledge of the car being run on grease. So, we called the shop that had been maintaining the car in DE and they confirmed that much of the maintenance they had done on the car recently had been due to the owner's use of grease. That means the owner that sold it to my son.

Every state has crooks, liers and criminals. I just hate that we found one in DE that was in the TDI community.

Having said that, another case history of Grease ruining a perfectly good ALH engine.

TW

RC · Nov 13, 2009

I think this says it all, from someone who knows first hand.

sdeck said:
I saved a bunch of $ when diesel was $5/gallon, but I am giving it all back now. I will not say definititively that WVO cannot be done in a TDI. there are examples of folks more anal and informed than myself doing it successfully for 100K+ miles. But I will say that very few folks are going to get away with this long term and it requires a lot of effort. I went into this with my eyes open and was proven wrong. Hope others can learn from this.

My hat is off to you sdeck; first for trying WVO, then for being honest and forthright with the consequences you experienced. It can be done, at some level, but it is damn difficult to pull it off.

Left Coast Resident · Nov 13, 2009

TurbineWhine said:
<SNIP> Every state has crooks, liers and criminals. I just hate that we found one in DE that was in the TDI community. TW

I vote that you tell us who it is -- he's sort of lost any expectation of privacy, I would think.

Souzafone · Nov 13, 2009

What he said.

Left Coast Resident said:
I vote that you tell us who it is -- he's sort of lost any expectation of privacy, I would think.

We're quick to jump on scammers and dealerships for pulling this kind of stuff, there's no reason someone else should get away with this behavior just because they post here.

Sdeck, sorry about your car, but congrats for being upfront about it. Most people that fubar their cars just slink away, you've provided useful info that may prove helpful. My hat's off to you.

TDIMeister · Nov 14, 2009

Do tell.

thebigarniedog · Nov 14, 2009

TurbineWhine said:
My "son just bought a car from an individual in Wilmington DE. Since he knows the risks of a greasecar, he asked the buyer if it was or ever had been a greasecar. The owner said no, that's a bad idea. They drove from NC to DE to buy the car. He bought the car and brought it home. Turns out the TB had been done with improper torquing of the engine bracket bolts and the TB system was destroyed on the way home to NC when the motor almost fell out of the car. Turns out the cam and lifters were destroyed. Turns out when I inspect the car, all the evidence was there of an Elsbett dual tank grease system that had been removed. Now we find out the block is ruined by stuck rings from the grease. I did call the owner who denied any knowledge of the car being run on grease. So, we called the shop that had been maintaining the car in DE and they confirmed that much of the maintenance they had done on the car recently had been due to the owner's use of grease. That means the owner that sold it to my son.

Every state has crooks, liers and criminals. I just hate that we found one in DE that was in the TDI community.

Having said that, another case history of Grease ruining a perfectly good ALH engine.

TW

When you sue this b*stard make sure you have some proof he said that the car was never run on grease --- because he will lie and said he never told you or your son that. He already lied twice, so do not expect him to tell the truth in Court. Good luck.

hevster1 · Nov 14, 2009

Here is the question. Does the bill of sale say anything about a warranty? If not I seriously doubt a suit will do anything especially from out of state. He is a private party and caveat emptor rules apply. Was this done through E-bay?

thebigarniedog · Nov 14, 2009

hevster1 said:
Here is the question. Does the bill of sale say anything about a warranty? If not I seriously doubt a suit will do anything especially from out of state. He is a private party and caveat emptor rules apply. Was this done through E-bay?

Your correct that this is not a warranty case and that usually such claims are barred by "caveat emptor". However, caveat emptor does not apply to fraud when the defect is latent (hidden). The problem of prooving this type of fraud is establishing/prooving that the seller induced (told his son) to buy the vehicle by making a false material statement about the non-use of grease on the car.

Every State has different laws, so the OP should check with an attorney licensed in the State where the vehicle was purchased.

brucebanes · Nov 14, 2009

My brother in law had to accept a vehicle he sold to someone in a private sale. The buyer claimed the engine started making a funny noise the seller said that noise was always there. The judge asked if the bill of sale included the words 'as is, where is' the Lady Judge said because it did not Automobiles are considered real property like houses and a warrenty is implied even if the bill of sale includes the typical no warrenty implied disclaimer.. This was in Maryland and he had to take the car back and refund the purchase price if you pm me Ill get you the case number maybe you can quote it in your court proceeding

GoFaster · Nov 14, 2009

I don't think the "as is" statement can withstand intentional misrepresentation, either.

Franko6 · Nov 14, 2009

When it comes to the phrase "Caveat emptor", the Romans must have been prophetic about selling used cars.

I believe it was the Click and Clack Brothers who read the rules,which apply to most states. Virtually, what it says is anything that the seller says verbally means absolutely NOTHING!

When you buy a used car, you assume all responsibility of that car. To be quite honest, I've never seen a grease car that didn't announce itself. I know when a greasecar head is in the shop before I even open the box, you can smell rancid oil.

naturist · Nov 23, 2009

sdeck, thank you for doing the experiment, even if it did turn out badly. and most particularly, for letting us know what happened after it turned out badly. the only way the body of public knowledge can be improved is for folks to honestly report both successes and failures. and those who would like the greasecar concept to actually succeed need to know what doesn't work as well as what does or might.

philngrayce · Nov 25, 2009

TurbineWhine said:
Having said that, another case history of Grease ruining a perfectly good ALH engine.

TW

Sounds more like incompetance ruining a perfectly good engine.

BKmetz · Nov 25, 2009

philngrayce said:
Sounds more like incompetance ruining a perfectly good engine.

You're right. It's always incompetence, but I'm not sure if it's always owner incompetence. Maybe the core idea has some built-in flaws?

philngrayce · Nov 26, 2009

Probably not owner incompetence - I don'tthink he was the one who tightened (or didn't) the bracket bolts.

DSLFAN · Nov 26, 2009

Bolts being left loose had nothing to do with stuck rings and worn out cam correct?

philngrayce said:
Probably not owner incompetence - I don'tthink he was the one who tightened (or didn't) the bracket bolts.

brucebanes · Nov 26, 2009

It's always the incompetent ones who can't use WVO properly (sarcasm intended). The competent ones can use it for 200k without any damage or problems those are the ones we hear from. The ones that can't usually get a Honda and we never hear from them again.

philngrayce · Nov 26, 2009

DSLFAN said:
Bolts being left loose had nothing to do with stuck rings and worn out cam correct?

I'd say they most likely do.

Concat · Nov 26, 2009

Time to record a phone conversation with the previous owner...

T'sTDI · Nov 26, 2009

DSLFAN said:
Bolts being left loose had nothing to do with stuck rings and worn out cam correct?

Quote from TurboWhine

"Turns out the TB had been done with improper torquing of the engine bracket bolts and the TB system was destroyed on the way home to NC when the motor almost fell out of the car. Turns out the cam and lifters were destroyed."

Yeah I would certainly think so. Driving a car when the timing belt snaps or comes loose would cause the ruination of an engine when its an interference motor. Everything above stops and everything below keeps turning.... AKA boom

I question how this car was even sold to the OP. How in the world was this POS sold and no one noticed even a slight hickup in the performance of the engine, it burning oil, nosies etc etc.. So this thing ran absolutely perfect when it was bought and then when you got it home everything went to hell??? I'm sorry but things don't quite work like that.

T'sTDI · Nov 26, 2009

BKmetz said:
Maybe the core idea has some built-in flaws?

No its just your lack of knowledge on the subject...

brucebanes · Nov 27, 2009

Concat said:
Time to record a phone conversation with the previous owner...

You better do so with his knowledge at least in some states in the USA. The penalty for recording a phone call illegally exceeds any punishment selling a fraudulent car would.

uncah91 · Nov 27, 2009

I question how this car was even sold to the OP[\quote]

Aren't there two different cars being talked about here? The OP (sdeck)ran on WVO on purpose, I think. Turbine Whine is describing a different car, maybe his son's.

sdeck is saying he didn't run it with long enough purges, etc. Another example of running WVO in a TDI being very difficult to do correctly. Every thread, even from successful WVO-ers, highlights the attention to detail required.

TurbineWhine has an example of someone dishonest selling a poorly maintained car, falsely advertised. It's really a completely different story.

thebigarniedog · Nov 27, 2009

T'sTDI said:
No its just your lack of knowledge on the subject...

The problem with this thead is that two different cars, that have two different (albeit a few of the same) sets of problems, are being discussed in this thread. The orginal car, in the OP, is a disaster apparently caused by grease. The second car (mentioned in post 3) is an example of a seller taking advantage of, and lying to, a young uninformed buyer. The post 3 person should check to see that both states (i.e. the law of the state of purchase and the buyer's home state law) are single party consent states prior to opting to do a recorded gotcha telephone call.

What I like about you T is that you never seem to be at a loss to take cheap personal shots at people (yes, you are the unkown greaser mentioned in my signature). No one can ask or challenge anything you say without committing sacriledge --- are you really that wound tight? You need to learn how to laugh at yourself and challenge your own beliefs without lashing out at others. If you turn out to be right, time will tell --- whether or not others accept or reject your beliefs is irrelevant. If your wrong, guess what: we all have our moments.

T'sTDI · Nov 27, 2009

uncah91 said:
I question how this car was even sold to the OP[\quote]

Click to expand...

I would have changed that but I can't edit posts cause Bk is still trying to prove a point.... The question is still up for debate to turbinewhine if he would like to answer.

BKmetz · Nov 27, 2009

No-edit is used on people who don't think what they are saying through carefully and just spill it out there. They tend to become revisionists and deny cause after the damage is done to themselves.

You and your post epitomizes my point well. You threw your opinions out there and now you don't like being held accountable for how your words are being perceived. Too bad. You said it and you can't take it back, just like real life. This is called being held responsible for one's actions.

Enjoy your status, you earned it.

T'sTDI said:
uncah91 said:

I would have changed that but I can't edit posts cause Bk is still trying to prove a point.... The question is still up for debate to turbinewhine if he would like to answer.

Click to expand...

T'sTDI · Nov 27, 2009

Must be nice living in a fault free world BK. Never making a mistake, that's really impressive

.

I've taken responsibility for everything I've said on this forum and don't take one word of it back. I speak my mind and spill it out for people that actually care to see. Whether or not that includes yourself, I could careless. I speak on a topic that is not regarded as "popular" and that is fine. However, I do have a problem with hearsay an BS being posted and believed by people that don't know any better. None of the BS being the least bit true.

By the way, the only thing I would have changed is OP to TubineWhine beings that could be taken as confusing. I wouldn't have changed my idea. Now I'll just waste precious internet space with my edits with another post...

So to reiterate, TURBINEWHINE, you bought a car that apparently was perfect in every regard. Didn't smoke upon startup, ran flawless and burned no oil. But then the second you got it home all the gremlins came out and the car went to hell. I have just a little problem believing that....

Later we find out that the timing belt came loose due to it not being torqued properly to spec. Any idea where timing remotely was? I think that's a relevant question beings timing and combustion go hand and hand. Don't you think that may of had something to do with coked up piston rings?

I understand that this is not your fault, but this is so far from a problem being associated with WVO.

thebigarniedog · Nov 27, 2009

T'sTDI said:
Must be nice living in a fault free world BK. Never making a mistake, that's really impressive.

I've taken responsibility for everything I've said on this forum and don't take one word of it back. I speak my mind and spill it out for people that actually care to see. Whether or not that includes yourself, I could careless. I speak on a topic that is not regarded as "popular" and that is fine. However, I do have a problem with hearsay an BS being posted and believed by people that don't know any better. None of the BS being the least bit true.

By the way, the only thing I would have changed is OP to TubineWhine beings that could be taken as confusing. I wouldn't have changed my idea. Now I'll just waste precious internet space with my edits with another post...

/edited.

WVO-induced engine damage/oil consumption

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