fuel starting issue

WildChild80

WildChild80

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STDOUBT said:
So...
Total head rebuild, 0.005mm decked, single-hole head gasket,...
In post 49 you said they did not measure protrusion. That should be standard practice given the TB event then milling. Would be nice to have those numbers. Did you or the shop do the leak down test?
What's the shop saying about that variance?
Click to expand...
Isn't the 1 hole the thinnest? I'm not going back and reading the thread but is that what it had on it before the event?

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Nero Morg

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At this point, I'd suggest reaching out to Franko6, he's the head master, and will be able to tell you if 0.005 is enough to make a difference and what else to check for low compression.
 
WildChild80

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Do a coolant leak test if you can find a pressure tester. If the pressure goes down, pull your glow plugs and role it over by hand and see if you get coolant puking out the holes. If timing is right, compression shouldn't have went down...if not timing, assuming the valves seal, the head gasket comes into question.

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STDOUBT

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WildChild80 said:
Isn't the 1 hole the thinnest? I'm not going back and reading the thread but is that what it had on it before the event?

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Click to expand...
"was told to use the same single hole head gasket as they only removed .005 off the combustion face."
On pg 2 Den said^ so apparently yes.
​
 
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Den

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I did the leak down test with zero loss of pressure, then did the blow in to see if there was an unknown air leak / path both turned out good.
I'm at a loss.
 
STDOUBT

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I second, or was it third, contacting Franko6.
Maybe PM him this thread but call him.
Your issue is an enigma wrapped in a mystery!
Something is suspect though- head(valves/seats proper), gasket...something!
If anyone can conjure an explanation for good leak down + low compression, it's probably Franko.
Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net



But please let us know how this turns out!
 
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In a static test it looks good but the dynamic compression is low. What could cause the difference?

As I recall the valves were set deeper but the stems were not shortened. Maybe the lifters pump up enough that the valves don't fully seat?

I didn't see an answer about the checking the crank end. Can that affect the cam timing enough to affect the compression this much?

Did you leave a rag in the intake system?
 
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Den

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Reaching for straws here pulled the injectors and took them to Southern Power to have them cleaned and tested, Eliminating what we can.

Then ????
 
Nero Morg

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STDOUBT said:
I second, or was it third, contacting Franko6.
Maybe PM him this thread but call him.
Your issue is an enigma wrapped in a mystery!
Something is suspect though- head(valves/seats proper), gasket...something!
If anyone can conjure an explanation for good leak down + low compression, it's probably Franko.
Frank's VW TDI's, LLC
1007 Olive St.
Lockwood, MO 65682
417-232-4634
FranksTDIs@sbcglobal.net



But please let us know how this turns out!
Click to expand...
Nero Morg said:
At this point, I'd suggest reaching out to Franko6, he's the head master, and will be able to tell you if 0.005 is enough to make a difference and what else to check for low compression.
Click to expand...
Come on man, spending money grabbing for straws? Whereas a phone call is free?? Just humor us. He's Monday through Friday by the way.
 
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KLXD

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I don't see injectors causing low compression. Maybe a high compression reading if they were injecting during the testing.
 
WildChild80

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KLXD said:
I don't see injectors causing low compression. Maybe a high compression reading if they were injecting during the testing.
Click to expand...
About the only thing they could do is not seal...I agree, the function of the injectors wouldn't cause low compression...the OP hasn't gotten to the point of that part yet.

Since the rings were good before, still should be...the only things I could see causing it would be timing, valves not sealing or the head gasket not sealing...am I missing anything...is the starter turning it fast enough, weak battery or tired starter?

Or injector seals but could it make that much difference without being seen or heard?


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Den

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Nero Morg said:
Come on man, spending money grabbing for straws? Whereas a phone call is free?? Just humor us. He's Monday through Friday by the way.
Click to expand...
Sent a long note about this issue but no response as of yet.
 
WildChild80

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Den said:
Sent a long note about this issue but no response as of yet.
Click to expand...
Frank doesn't get in here much, fastest way to reach Frank is via phone

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K

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WildChild80 said:
About the only thing they could do is not seal...I agree, the function of the injectors wouldn't cause low compression...the OP hasn't gotten to the point of that part yet.

Since the rings were good before, still should be...the only things I could see causing it would be timing, valves not sealing or the head gasket not sealing...am I missing anything...is the starter turning it fast enough, weak battery or tired starter?

Or injector seals but could it make that much difference without being seen or heard?


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Click to expand...
The leakdown test would shown all that except timing.

I assumed cam timing is good since he says so.

BUT, if the crank gear is off, cam timing is off and could affect compression.

I've brought up the crank gear as a possibility twice but he hasn't addressed it.
 
WildChild80

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KLXD said:
The leakdown test would shown all that except timing.

I assumed cam timing is good since he says so.

BUT, if the crank gear is off, cam timing is off and could affect compression.

I've brought up the crank gear as a possibility twice but he hasn't addressed it.
Click to expand...
Oh yeah...I'm starting to join your train of thought, it can't be anything other than timing...the leak down test has ruled out everything else... honestly it almost proves that timing is the culprit, is there any other interpretation of the info provided?

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Den

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KLXD said:
The leakdown test would shown all that except timing.
I assumed cam timing is good since he says so.
BUT, if the crank gear is off, cam timing is off and could affect compression.
I've brought up the crank gear as a possibility twice but he hasn't addressed it.
Click to expand...
OK, been trying to eliminate everything before the head comes back off. New injectors, changed out the pump thought it may not be putting out the right amount of psi needed to pop the injectors correctly.
Only thing we have not done is remove the crank pulley to see if it has moved. Hard to believe that it would but what else can you do and if moved how and why.
Anyone know the thickness of the crank key way? what has to happen to sheer it or move it enough to thro timing off?
Actually never hears of this happening BUT.
 
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It's not a key, the end of the crank is D shaped.

There have been pics here. If the crank bolt is removed and not installed per the book with a new bolt torqued to umpteen ft-lb plus a quarter turn it can start moving and the pocket in the sprocket gets wallowed out.

Has your crank sprocket been removed? Was it reinstalled correctly with a new bolt?

I agree it seems unlikely but I can't come up with anything else that splains your symptoms.
 
WildChild80

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KLXD said:
It's not a key, the end of the crank is D shaped.

There have been pics here. If the crank bolt is removed and not installed per the book with a new bolt torqued to umpteen ft-lb plus a quarter turn it can start moving and the pocket in the sprocket gets wallowed out.

Has your crank sprocket been removed? Was it reinstalled correctly with a new bolt?

I agree it seems unlikely but I can't come up with anything else that splains your symptoms.
Click to expand...
88ft/lbs plus 90 degrees if I remember.

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I'm not going to look back but a rag left in the intake or some other obstruction in the intake system occurred to me.

Has that been mentioned?
 
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Den

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KLXD said:
It's not a key, the end of the crank is D shaped.
There have been pics here. If the crank bolt is removed and not installed per the book with a new bolt torqued to umpteen ft-lb plus a quarter turn it can start moving and the pocket in the sprocket gets wallowed out.
Has your crank sprocket been removed? Was it reinstalled correctly with a new bolt?
I agree it seems unlikely but I can't come up with anything else that splains your symptoms.
Click to expand...
The crank pulley has not been removed, I just used it for the crank timing adapter and when the flywheel timing mark was at tdc and cam lock in place the crank lock fit right in as did the ip locking pin.
Right from the start I thought that the cylinder head was the problem but still cannot figure out how you can loose 100 or so psi when rebuilding the head, even with the .005 " milled of the face how can you loose that much compression, actually you should gain a small amount.
IF the pulley has moved I realize the piston would not be where it should, so can the pulley be off and the crank lock fit right in along with all the other pins and locks and give you a false piston position?????
I removed number one piston glow plug when I turned the engine over by hand to time it and the piston I thought was at tdc, if it was off it sure was not much.
The outfit that did the head has been doing this for many years and tells me do not remove the head until we figure this out, WELL no has figured it out yet, nothing else to change out or check that I know , looks like the head will come off .
 
Nero Morg

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So to clarify, you set crank timing by using the lock, not the timing mark through the transmission inspection hole? It could be out of time still.
 
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If the crank sprocket's never been off that makes it unlikely to have moved in my book but not impossible
 
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Den

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Nero Morg said:
So to clarify, you set crank timing by using the lock, not the timing mark through the transmission inspection hole? It could be out of time still.
Click to expand...
I rotated the engine by hand and when the mark on the flywheel was right at the pointer, the cam lok, the ip pin and crank lock went right in, so if pulley had moved the timing should be spot on, right? i'm confused about the pulley when everything else lines up??
 
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Den said:
The crank pulley has not been removed, I just used it for the crank timing adapter and when the flywheel timing mark was at tdc and cam lock in place the crank lock fit right in as did the ip locking pin.
(some deleted)
IF the pulley has moved I realize the piston would not be where it should, so can the pulley be off and the crank lock fit right in along with all the other pins and locks and give you a false piston position?????
Click to expand...
I don't know what the 'crank lock' is unless it goes on the crank gear to lock it.
I thought were for BEW engines, I never used one.

For the pulley to move the keyway would have to shear, partially if not fully.
I don't think you want to remove it and go through the tightening process which is not easy from what I hear.
I don't think it's necessary.

If the TDC mark on the flywheel is at TDC and the cam lock slips right in you should have those two correct.

I had the pump timing off once (2nd belt) and it wouldn't start. Other tech told me he saw some white smoke out the tale pipe.

I put the cam lock in again, with the flywheel at TDC.
I loosened the 3 bolts on the pump gear.
Took the belt off, turned the pump until the lock pin went right all the way (there is a dummy hole that I hit on the 3rd belt) set the 3 pump bolts to be about in the center of travel and tightened them.

Car started right up.

If this isn't working I would start thinking about water or such in the tank or such. If that wasn't asked already.
Maybe drain the filter into a jar, see what comes out?
 
Nero Morg

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The generic timing belt tools you can get come with a crank lock tool, looks like a little moon shape thing with grooves like the timing belt, and lock it in at the timing belt end. Out of all guides for doing these belts, not once do they ever mention using the tool on the ALH, I believe it was used for older engines only.

So after your belt is set, bar the crank over two turns, stop at the timing mark in the inspection hole. Does the cam tool and pump tool still line up?
 
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His problem is low compression, not just that it won't start. I'm still trying to come up with a cause of low compression with a good leak down test which should exonerate leaking valves or rings. The only thing I can come up with is bad cam timing or an intake obstruction.

Again, the crank end is D shaped. It doesn't have a key. There have been threads about it moving and pounding out the pocket in the sprocket. I don't know that they were all the result of incorrect torquing of the sprocket bolt.

The use of the crank lock raised a red flag since they sometimes aren't the most reliable tool. I assume you've rechecked the timing.
 
Nero Morg

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Out of time can cause low compression, because the valves will open before the piston can hit TDC. Hopefully it's not out of time though. Random thought, cam out 180°?
 
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