NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
According to the link in this post, European diesel has a much lower scar rating than North America's.
Thanks. The data is well presented.

Trouble is, only a few samples from each region/country, and the failure rate of CR fuel pumps should also get such a nice orderly reporting:

This year Infineum collected 381 samples from 42 countries, which were analysed for 14 parameters including: sulphur, lubricity, cold filter plugging point and fatty acid methyl ester (FAME) content.
The survey covers different refineries but doesn't seem to control for brand specific additives (Chevron vs Shell vs unbranded etc.):

Samples need to be representative of the diesel purchased by the average consumer so they are gathered from service stations by Infineum colleagues at local area offices. As a general principle, Infineum tries to get one sample that represents the production from each refinery or region in a given country. To minimise the possibility of taking multiple samples from a single refinery, knowledge of local exchange agreements and distribution systems is used to select where each sample is collected. For the larger diesel consuming countries, this procedure results in samples that represent a reasonable average of the overall quality. However, for smaller countries or specific producers, spot sampling over a short period of time will effectively only provide a snapshot of production quality, with data derived from only one or two samples. This can make it more difficult to evaluate trends with any accuracy.
Its still a very nice presentation that makes no unsubstantiated claims.
 
Last edited:

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
UPDATE (9 December): Sorry for not responding to questions or updating my post sooner. When the HPFP went out for the second time, I was furious. I contacted Star Motor of WV and told them what happened. I had my TDI delivered to them on 22 November. I didn't contact them but waited for them to contact me. While I waited, I analyzed my finances to determine how I would pay for the repairs. On 6 December, Star Motor contacted me and told the TDI was fixed and I could pick it up anytime. They also said VWOA paid for the repairs and I owe nothing. Thank you Star Motor. The first time the HPFP went out was July 2011 when the TDI had 36,250'ish miles. I fought with VWOA to pay for that repair. VWOA didn't want to but the Regional Representative (Brian) agreed to have VWOA pay for the repair. I received a call from VWOA stating basically, even though they said no to paying, they will support their Rep and cover the repairs. This time, I didn't contact VWOA but they paid for the repair anyway. So, the first HPFP lasted 36,250 miles and the second HPFP lasted roughly 113,549 miles. IMO the HPFP should not have failed at all. It is not a typical wear item and shouldn't need to be replaced. I do not run a fuel filtration system or use fuel additives but maybe I should. I'll research those items later in the other areas of this forum. However, I will probably trade the vehicle. I still owe on it but I think it's best to trade it while it's still running and before the HPFP goes out for a third time.
I agree that VW did a poor job with the HPFP but this is why I just drive mine and don't concern myself with the issue. I don't even check in here very often any more.

Yes, I know that some day maybe they will not cover them but they are now so if that time ever happens I'll worry then.
 

Trooper81

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2001
Location
Ontario Canada
TDI
2000 New Beetle, 2011 Touareg TDI
According to the link in this post, European diesel has a much lower scar rating than North America's.

This is very telling of the longevity of the pumps in north America vs Europe, Germany in particular has a mean average HFFR score of 204 on the chart. This is half of what the canadian and US score is. Its no wonder the Projected life of the pump is 450,000 Km on German fuel.
 

torqueit

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Location
Rochester, MI
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
That is a very interesting link indeed. For me, it confirms using a lubricity additive or a small amount of biodiesel in each and every fill up. High volume stations, low volume stations, there is no guarantee of not getting a few tankfulls of the 500 HFRR fuel and doing damage to your pump.

Our vehicles get good enough mileage that you only put so many tanks of fuel in them. Might as well toss in some optilube, stanadyne, howes, etc....

I go through about $60 of optilube for 20,000 miles (give or take). $300 over 100,000 miles or so. Cheap insurance.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I was surprised that there wasn't more FAME in the samples tested across all of the US. It seems to me that more and more stations are at least saying that they now have a small amount of bio. I have to assume that since this report covers 2012 winterized fuel, that the use of bio had not taken off yet.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
The argument that a more strict European standard makes European fuel better is not supported either.

It seems that few if any have posted any data on actual European fuel field results, or fuel pump failure rates for that matter.
What qualities would make one fuel better than another, in your opinion?
Data to support such a claim.
:confused: that doesn't answer the question I posed...

Thanks. The data is well presented.
...Its still a very nice presentation that makes no unsubstantiated claims.
So now that you've seen the data, do you see trends in European fuel that do support the claims that it is better than N American fuel?
 

torqueit

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Location
Rochester, MI
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
Not answering for Tin Man, but the data does suggest that there is less variability in lubricity and generally lower HFRR scores. The max HFRR was significantly lower than the maximum standard (460), the level presumably that the pumps were designed for.

The old Bosch presentation shows an exponential decline in the pump as HFRR scores exceeded 460 HFRR. US fuel maximum HFRR measurement included some samples that were over 500.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Note that the Worldwide Fuel Charter recommendation is max 400 micron wear scar. This is supported by the wear data chart supplied in the old Bosch presentation that shows a 380 micron wear scar never going below 100% durability, while a 450 micron wear scar fuel had reduced durability at around 1500 hours into the test.

For those that want maximum service life from their diesel fuel injection equipment, ensuring <400 micron wear scar is the way to go.
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
Note that the Worldwide Fuel Charter recommendation is max 400 micron wear scar. This is supported by the wear data chart supplied in the old Bosch presentation that shows a 380 micron wear scar never going below 100% durability, while a 450 micron wear scar fuel had reduced durability at around 1500 hours into the test.

For those that want maximum service life from their diesel fuel injection equipment, ensuring <400 micron wear scar is the way to go.
Here in New Jersey, there are no diesel supplies rated at 380 HFRR that I'm aware of.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
There are probably none in the US "that any one is aware of" seeing as for the most part no actual specs are available for the fuel. Find some B5 or less or use some additive if you want to. It shouldn't be that hard to do one or the other.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Here in New Jersey, there are no diesel supplies rated at 380 HFRR that I'm aware of.
There are probably none in the US "that any one is aware of" seeing as for the most part no actual specs are available for the fuel. Find some B5 or less or use some additive if you want to. It shouldn't be that hard to do one or the other.
+1: You don't know what your HFRR wear scar is unless you pay to have it tested yourself. And then it will be different the next tank.

The good news for the east coast is that those samples had the best overall lubricity. The max was under 400 micron w.s. and the mean was 327 micron w.s. Out of the 9 samples taken from that region, only 2 had measurable biodiesel content.

I wonder if your favorite station's distributor could give you any info on their targets for lubricity?
 

torqueit

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Location
Rochester, MI
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE
So basically you can never tell what the lubricity is of the diesel you're pumping.

If it's B5, you're reasonably confident that it has a low wear scar number.

If you've added a lubricity additive, you 're reasonably confident that it has a low wear scar number.

If you add a quart of B100 and some lubricity additive, you're almost guaranteed that you have a low wear scar number.

I keep hoping to find a station near me with B100.

But in order to be really confident, it has to be EVERY tank of fuel. All the time. One completely unadditized tank of fuel (HFRR 600 or so) or anything mixed with gasoline and you're in trouble. Of course, if you get some nasty fuel with gas mixed in, chances are the additive won't help either.
 

tditom

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Right, but B2 is plenty for lubricity. Little gain after that.

When I lived in MI I fueled up at a place that allowed me to mix B20 and D2 to bring it into the B3 range. The place is out near Manchester, so I doubt you'd want to go that far from Rochester Hills.
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
:confused: that doesn't answer the question I posed...


So now that you've seen the data, do you see trends in European fuel that do support the claims that it is better than N American fuel?
You are begging the question.
 

Diesl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
TDI
'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
stay alive with B5

#1 conclusion: you absolutely definitely positively want some bio in your diesel!

Cases in point:
The one bad german sample had 0% biodiesel; all midwest samples with 11% biodiesel have around 200 µm wear scar ratings, which puts them on par with what they serve in the country the car and pump were designed in.
 

DubFamily

Veteran Member
Joined
May 30, 2012
Location
Swan Point, MD
TDI
2014 BMW 328D xDrive
Curious response given all the additive testing you've performed yourself :confused:
Why exactly would that be curious? I stated I have always believed that our diesel in the US is not as bad as everyone seems to make it out to be (and my point is supported by the Infineum testing). That does not mean I feel our diesel cannot be improved upon...

Maryland is not a state that has jumped on the biodiesel bandwagon as yet; so I continue to use additives to ensure I can maximize the service life of my vehicle and its performance characteristics.

I fail to see any curiosity in that...
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
i remember i opened a poll months ago (that did not have a lot of success :D ) asking if you knew which kind of diesel was used at your first fill up: according to Bosh documents it is vital for the life of the pump that a low scar wearing diesel is used at first fill up.
I personally used B11 (did not know at that time, found out later that all the IL pumps that have BIO are B11 because of a tax break)
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I know what went into my JSW when I bought it since I filled about half a tank on my test drive. At that time, very few in the Charlotte area had any bio available and I did not know about the hpfp issues. On the Golf, I put in a splash of the silver bottle once I got it home.
 

JSWTDI09

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
TDI
2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
i remember i opened a poll months ago (that did not have a lot of success :D ) asking if you knew which kind of diesel was used at your first fill up:
I know what brand of diesel fuel was used on the first fill-up. The problem is that I know nothing about the quality of that fuel. The problem with American fuel is not the average quality (or lubricity), it is the wide variability seen in the fuel testing. Every tanker truck pulling out of the distribution terminal has its additive package automatically added to its load. There seems to (at least occasionally) be a wide gap in quality from load to load. Your favorite fueling station might have great fuel this week, but bad fuel next week it the additive package was not properly added. There are many possible reasons why the additive package is wrong. These range all the way from saving money, to operator error, to equipment malfunction.
Where I live, bio blends are not easy to find and none are convenient to me. I will continue to supplement whatever additives the terminal added to my D2 with my own additional additive. It might be a waste of money most of the time, but it makes me feel better and my engine seems to like it.

Have Fun!

Don
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
The first fill-up I did I put in Gulf, but since I had plenty left over from the TDI I traded in, I also poured in PS. Who knows what was in there before I bought it.
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
Several here have wondered about the fuel quality used for the initial run-in of the CR TDIs...you know, the factory fill that's required to roll the car off the assembly line>>>.

I'd like to think there are guys in white lab coats continually drawing samples of ULSD, checking for contamination, lubricity, etc. etc. One would assume that VW has been very conscientious about the QC of their "factory fill" fluids, but we all know what happens when one "assumes."
 

South Coast Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Location
Mattapoisett, MA
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI wagon
Several here have wondered about the fuel quality used for the initial run-in of the CR TDIs...you know, the factory fill that's required to roll the car off the assembly line>>>.

I'd like to think there are guys in white lab coats continually drawing samples of ULSD, checking for contamination, lubricity, etc. etc. One would assume that VW has been very conscientious about the QC of their "factory fill" fluids, but we all know what happens when one "assumes."
Why would you assume that about VW or any manufacturer. I expect the fuel is delivered to the factory by a vendor selected by bidding. The quality is as good or bad as any purchaser would find at a station in the vicinity of the assembly plant.
 

TDI2000Zim

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2010
Location
NJ
TDI
VW hat meinen '14 Passat TDiSE getötet.
100% Diesel Shipping Trucks and Buses drive around the USA burning diesel without any trouble. The FUEL SUPPLY is not the problem.
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
Bosch stipulated that the lubricity of the initial run-in fuel supplied to the HPFP system was critical to the longevity of the fuel system. (There's a paper deep in the bowels of these HPFP threads stating this, IIRC!) I would think that VW (BTW, this has NOTHING to do with govt. administration!) would have heeded this admonition and assured that the initial fuel fill was properly additized.
 

03_01_TDI

Banned
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Location
Denmark
TDI
Na
100% Diesel Shipping Trucks and Buses drive around the USA burning diesel without any trouble. The FUEL SUPPLY is not the problem.
150,000$ trucks with heavy duty commercial engines, 50-200 gallon fuel tanks, and large fuel filter / water separators.

Apples to oranges.

The lighter duty engines such as small tractors have issues with bad fuel. John Deere clearly recommends fuel additives.

Obviously our hpfp is not tolerable to bad fuel. So don't use bad fuel.:p
 

tdiatlast

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 21, 2009
Location
Fort Worth, Texas
TDI
2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
^^^this. I don't know why people constantly try to compare these engines to ANY other diesel engine. I know they're not entirely unique, but comparing small displacement engines to large displacement engines just doesn't make any sense.
Principles are the same, but my Honda lawnmower ICE has little to do with a Honda V-6.
 
Last edited:

Aquila

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
*** SOLD 08-27-15***09 JSW - DSG, Nav, F1 Tint, MFSW w/paddles, APR Stage 1, Unitronic DSG flash, HAVE VCDS
While we're OT, here's a link to the company that supplies B20 to my local BP station: http://www.trianglebiofuels.com/distributors.php Note the descriptions of the various blends of bio, and the mixing instructions. Guess I should be pumping the 1.5 gal of B20 after the 11.5 gal of D2 instead of the other way around. Never knew bio was heavier than D2.
 

03_01_TDI

Banned
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Location
Denmark
TDI
Na
While we're OT, here's a link to the company that supplies B20 to my local BP station: http://www.trianglebiofuels.com/distributors.php Note the descriptions of the various blends of bio, and the mixing instructions. Guess I should be pumping the 1.5 gal of B20 after the 11.5 gal of D2 instead of the other way around. Never knew bio was heavier than D2.
Doesn't matter. Within x minutes the fuel has cycled through the tank, lines, pump and returned.
 
Top