EGR Delete

morpwr

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Location
Carleton Place, Ontario
TDI
2006 Jetta DSG Highline Red w/tan
I read an old thread where Mark Malone had said that by deleting the EGR, the engine got worse fuel economy. It was suggested that with out the EGR cooler warming up the coolant, in cool weather, the engine ran colder and the fuel economy dropped. As we have cold winters, what about putting some copper tubing around the down pipe, covering it with pipe wrap, and using it instead of the EGR cooler. This way the coolant will get more heat input than the EGR cooler, and there will be no EGR in the intake to carbon it up. Anybody tried this? Thanks Stephen
 

Jergren

Active member
Joined
May 20, 2010
Location
Indianapolis, IN
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI manual
Fuel economy will suffer regardless in the winter. Deleting the EGR cooler will not make that big of a difference in warm up times. Wrapping copper tubing around the down pipe and running coolant through it is not practical. Use your seat heaters and don't worry about the EGR leaking ever again.
 

dandywriter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Location
Ottawa (Kanata), Canada, eh?
TDI
2014 Golf Wagon 6M
It takes a fairly long time for the engine to warm in the winter; temp drops at red lights too - worse if you run the fan past '1'. I wouldn't delete EGR lest I freeze more... I have just invested in a ID Parts winter front for my 06 - installing it when the temp goes negative.

USLD fuel has pretty well sorted out the intake gunk issue. Do occasional "Italian tune-ups" to help...
 
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turbovan+tdi

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Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
USLD fuel has pretty well sorted out the intake gunk issue. Do occasional "Italian tune-ups" to help...
MMMMMMMmm, that's a big ten four NO. It has nothing to do with the fuel.
 

fossill

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Location
Canada
TDI
Golf
MMMMMMMmm, that's a big ten four NO. It has nothing to do with the fuel.
Yup! Hot exhaust gasses mix with the oil thats naturally in the intake thereby "cooking" up a sludgy mess sticking to the sides of the intake eventually clogging it over time.
 

dandywriter

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2007
Location
Ottawa (Kanata), Canada, eh?
TDI
2014 Golf Wagon 6M
where I got my information:

quote This whole plugging issue is a thing of the past with USLD, back when LSD was in the system plugging was assured and just a matter of time.

I haven't had to clean my intake OR ports in over 170,000 miles, I drive my car properly, have a 100% functioning EGR, and 100% functional CCV. Intake plugging is completely abscent from my motor and simply not a concern.
from: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=204068&highlight=usld+intake post #14.

Also see: quote By the way, from what I've seen, intake clogging is not much of an issue on the PD engines. The EGR valve itself gets dirty, and the intake manifold gets black inside, but it doesn't clog. end quote

from: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=167402&highlight=usld+egr post #4.

OP and I have PD's running Canadian diesel. I understand it may be different with earlier TDI's or US fuel.
 

DieselBruce

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Location
New Jersey
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2001 jetta tdi
quote This whole plugging issue is a thing of the past with USLD, back when LSD was in the system plugging was assured and just a matter of time.

I haven't had to clean my intake OR ports in over 170,000 miles, I drive my car properly, have a 100% functioning EGR, and 100% functional CCV. Intake plugging is completely abscent from my motor and simply not a concern.
from: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=204068&highlight=usld+intake post #14.

Also see: quote By the way, from what I've seen, intake clogging is not much of an issue on the PD engines. The EGR valve itself gets dirty, and the intake manifold gets black inside, but it doesn't clog. end quote

from: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=167402&highlight=usld+egr post #4.

OP and I have PD's running Canadian diesel. I understand it may be different with earlier TDI's or US fuel.
That's more-so the engine design than the fuel... The ALH engines are known to clog, frequently.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Mar 23, 2014
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Abbotsford, BC.
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2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
That's more-so the engine design than the fuel... The ALH engines are known to clog, frequently.
Yep. Also, the oil you use is part of it. Can't remember the name but LM has some out now that doesn't plug the intake up as fast.
 

chicken835

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Location
New Orleans
TDI
2003 jetta
I am new to the TDI scene and have a question related to this warming up..... do they make a thermostat that opens at a higher temperature?
 

turbovan+tdi

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Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Nope.

What's your issue? Slow to warm up?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Lots if misinformation in this thread.

ULSD did indeed VASTLY improve EGR-related clogging, to the point now that it really is no longer an issue. I can't even remember the last ALH intake I swapped for a clean one (we used to do at least one a week).

The EGR does indeed speed up warming of the engine, since coolant goes through the EGR cooler and exhaust gets hot right away. It isn't a hug difference, but it is noticeable.

There is indeed a "warmer" thermostat you can use for the ALH, 92C instead of the standard 87C. It is what I use, and it makes my EGR-less ALH a little better in the extreme cold.

I also use a winter front, and have all of my undershields/skidplate in place and tight.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
I read an old thread where Mark Malone had said that by deleting the EGR, the engine got worse fuel economy. It was suggested that with out the EGR cooler warming up the coolant, in cool weather, the engine ran colder and the fuel economy dropped. As we have cold winters, what about putting some copper tubing around the down pipe, covering it with pipe wrap, and using it instead of the EGR cooler. This way the coolant will get more heat input than the EGR cooler, and there will be no EGR in the intake to carbon it up. Anybody tried this? Thanks Stephen
I would be interested in the result of removing a working egr cooler vs a working egr in regards to how fast the oil cooler/warmer increases in temperature. getting the oil up to temperature as quickly as possible is key for me in winter.

I have found that I can feel heat( warm) at the oil cooler in sub freezing temperatures within 3 minutes. I wonder how long it would take if I removed the egr cooler before I felt heat at the oil cooler in the same conditions.

This has led me to thinking a combination 125 watt pan heater and a 750 watt coolant heater would partially solve the problem that Malone is suggesting. If the weather holds I may try this since I already have the pan heater on my one car. I have the 750 watt on my other car. Maybe I will try both together. Instead of 3 minutes i should have instant warm oil.
Of course I have working egrs which will help the warm up until the thermostat opens as well.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
In the winter, especially in Ontario, the thermostat may never open, all winter long. Normal for a TDI really. The engines are just too efficient to make much waste heat, what little they do make will be taken to heat the cabin. This is why dead cooling fans on TDIs hardly ever get noticed unless the A/C works poorly in the summer. The engine couldn't care less.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Lots if misinformation in this thread.

ULSD did indeed VASTLY improve EGR-related clogging, to the point now that it really is no longer an issue. I can't even remember the last ALH intake I swapped for a clean one (we used to do at least one a week).

The EGR does indeed speed up warming of the engine, since coolant goes through the EGR cooler and exhaust gets hot right away. It isn't a hug difference, but it is noticeable.

There is indeed a "warmer" thermostat you can use for the ALH, 92C instead of the standard 87C. It is what I use, and it makes my EGR-less ALH a little better in the extreme cold.

I also use a winter front, and have all of my undershields/skidplate in place and tight.
We agree to disagree, ULSD did virtually nothing, you do realize its been out since 2006. So your telling me the intakes all plugged up in the first few years? I guess all the other diesels with EGR running ULSD that plug up are a result of? ;)

5 deg c thermostat shouldn't do a thing for temp but I stand corrected that there is one available.

EGR, guess I'll see this winter.

Agreed on a winter front, made a massive difference on my van.
 

40X40

Experienced
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Location
Kansas City area, MO
TDI
2013 Passat SEL Premium
We agree to disagree, ULSD did virtually nothing, you do realize its been out since 2006. So your telling me the intakes all plugged up in the first few years? I guess all the other diesels with EGR running ULSD that plug up are a result of? ;)

5 deg c thermostat shouldn't do a thing for temp but I stand corrected that there is one available.

EGR, guess I'll see this winter.

Agreed on a winter front, made a massive difference on my van.

The effect of ULSD on TDI intake clogging has been well known on this forum for years...

Bill
 

DieselBruce

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2013
Location
New Jersey
TDI
2001 jetta tdi
In the winter, especially in Ontario, the thermostat may never open, all winter long. Normal for a TDI really. The engines are just too efficient to make much waste heat, what little they do make will be taken to heat the cabin. This is why dead cooling fans on TDIs hardly ever get noticed unless the A/C works poorly in the summer. The engine couldn't care less.
The only reason that I noticed that one of my fans was missing a hunk out of it was because on very rare occasions the whole car would start vibrating. I traced it back to the fan and realized that these fans RARELY come on until the middle of the summer.
 

morpwr

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Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Location
Carleton Place, Ontario
TDI
2006 Jetta DSG Highline Red w/tan
Whats The Difference?

If the EGR cooler warms up the coolant running through it, whats the difference if there is a few turns of tubing around the downpipe. The coolant would go through it and warm up. The the area of the tubing was similar to the EGR cooler it should have the same effect. Wrap a little pipe wrap around it to conserve heat, no EGR cooler to plug the intake, and the extra heat the engine needs for our balmy winter Canadian climate.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
We agree to disagree, ULSD did virtually nothing, you do realize its been out since 2006. So your telling me the intakes all plugged up in the first few years? .
On the ALH, yes, that is exactly what I am telling you. I've been working on these cars professionally every day since they came out. I have a pretty good handle on what ULSD did. This is old news, well known here before you even became a member. :cool:
 

rangeroad

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Location
Halifax
TDI
2005 GLS Jetta Wagon (5-speed) Malone 1.5 w/ EGR delete
Oil hammer, what are your thoughts on cleaning EGR and intake on a 2005 BEW with 210k kms that's never been cleaned? Part of me really wants to get in there and do it, the other part says 'leave it alone, wagon is running fine, don't mess with it.'

Preventative maintenance perhaps? I've owned it since 190k kms, and have used Power Service every fill up since then, with spirited highway driving.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I don't think you'll find much of anything except for right at the EGR valve itself, and if the engine is running OK and there are no DTCs present then the system is working normally, I'd not fool with anything at all.
 

James & Son

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 10, 2008
Location
Maryhill, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta
If the EGR cooler warms up the coolant running through it, whats the difference if there is a few turns of tubing around the downpipe. The coolant would go through it and warm up. The the area of the tubing was similar to the EGR cooler it should have the same effect. Wrap a little pipe wrap around it to conserve heat, no EGR cooler to plug the intake, and the extra heat the engine needs for our balmy winter Canadian climate.
Don't expect me to buy your prototype LOL. If its not made out of stainless steel forget you even thought of it.
 

strommer

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
Jetta 2006 platinum
EGR location?

Where is the EGR on the 06 Jetta? I would like to see if mine is dirty as I have a loss of power and the car smokes when I accelerate more than normal. A pic of the location or link to show would be helpful, thanks
 

LovinPSDs

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2004
Location
SouthWest Indiana
TDI
2012 Gone, looking for a cheap commuter
I think you can solve the whole problem by deleting the EGR and adding a winter front. Then you get the best of both worlds.

Oilhammer, do you run a winter front? It's actually kinda interesting how little heat these things make. Winter front, i'd bet a bottom skid plate, and maybe some insulation under the hood would all help.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I run a winter front on my Golf. My other TDI, the Passat, I do not. It has an intact EGR and it is a PD. It warms up rather quickly.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Lots if misinformation in this thread.

ULSD did indeed VASTLY improve EGR-related clogging, to the point now that it really is no longer an issue. I can't even remember the last ALH intake I swapped for a clean one (we used to do at least one a week).

The EGR does indeed speed up warming of the engine, since coolant goes through the EGR cooler and exhaust gets hot right away. It isn't a hug difference, but it is noticeable.

There is indeed a "warmer" thermostat you can use for the ALH, 92C instead of the standard 87C. It is what I use, and it makes my EGR-less ALH a little better in the extreme cold.

I also use a winter front, and have all of my undershields/skidplate in place and tight.

Yes! The newbie-know-nothingness is strong in this thread.

EGR delete is a solution in search of a problem. EGR delete reduces winter FE by about 10% in climates north of MO, roughly speaking.
 

jfbsaratoga

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2012
Location
Houston
TDI
2002 GLS TDI
OP - go with Malones dynamic idle and dynamic EGR solution. I have it and it works great when it gets into the 50's in my great state.
 
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