Hard Start / No Start - Is your intercooler frozen? Check Here!

TDI Koche said:

As for driving- I am familiar with how to drive these vehicles. My normal driving should be more than adequate to keep moisture from building up in the IC and soot from building up in an intake. When it snows here, my wife calls me "The Ice Road Trucker." I'm the a$$hole passing everyone, including the snow plow. lol

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OK cool. Me too with regards to the IRT reference.

It was around 18F this morning when I left for work, 28F when I arrived at work. Traffic was moving really well today (cruising at 80+ MPH) and I was able to keep my foot into my '10 JSW for quite a while.

I wonder if this issue has any correlation with 6MT and DSG. My guess people having this issue mostly have 6MT and drive their cars in a more efficient power band, on the highway it's spinning 200 rpm lower. This means less air flow possibly cooler EGT meaning the IC is working less.
Or vice versa, seeing if the 6MT is driven at 1800-2000 RMP with light load at 45 just puttering along, the EGTs will be lower, lower boost, more air flow, this could lead up to the perfect storm.
Maybe some lugging of the engine to simulate the DSG it could prevent this. Either way, I think EGTs need to be kept higher and possibly lower air flow is needed to prevent this. That and an IC block off.

I have a 6MT in my JSW and I drive it like I stole it, and a lot more so lately since reading about intercoolers icing up. I have run mine hard enough and raised EGTs high enough for the ECU to start reducing power to protect everything. And still getting around 40 MPG is nice bonus too.

I'm usually at NO LESS THAN 2000 RPM whenever I've got a load on the engine. I'm careful to keep RPMs around 2000 RPM when cruising along for optimum DPF health. The car gets several daily runs at WOT up to 4000 RPM during the course of my commute to and from work.

I bought some foam pipe insulation at The Home Depot over the weekend to block off the IC. There's a snowstorm forcasted for Wednesday this week and I plan to have the pipe insulation installed over the IC front grille area before the storm arrives. I'll take some pics of the install.

I bet your operating conditions won't lead to a problem. But we'd need to have more chime in on their driving habits to see if my crack brained idea has any merrit.

Driving habits dont seem too matter much.

However i did give her a real good flogging, during the first long freeze of the season, and after the thaw and knock on wood no issues this year.

Little premature too say cured at this point.

I do not drive for max fuel milage, rural roads, multiple 4k runs daily are the norm.

When i say flogging, i mean it! I love the smell of a flogged tdi in the morning

I have a 6MT Golf and (knock on wood) haven't had my IC ice up on me yet. I have an 8 mile comute to work which consists of 50/50 highway and light city driving. I generally shift around 3K RPMs and cruise at 2K. If I feel the engine has warmed up enough (not just 190* on the dash) I will give it an occasional WOT in which gear is approperate for the drving conditions. My fiancee drives the car a couple times a week and she has a 50 mile commute each way (almost all highway), I'm pretty sure she drives similar to me (except the WOT runs).

Here's hoping to a problem free 2011.

740GLE said:

I bet your operating conditions won't lead to a problem. But we'd need to have more chime in on their driving habits to see if my crack brained idea has any merrit.

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Had one rough start in December, 6MT, short commute ,55 mph usually run in 6 th gear but lately keeping rpms up more?

Conan said:

Sounds like a great album name for the next Spinal Tap LP...

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Ow!!!! Me hurts from a bad cold and laughing at this was not fun....but fun to laugh at.

740GLE said:

I wonder if this issue has any correlation with 6MT and DSG. My guess people having this issue mostly have 6MT and drive their cars in a more efficient power band, on the highway it's spinning 200 rpm lower. This means less air flow possibly cooler EGT meaning the IC is working less.
Or vice versa, seeing if the 6MT is driven at 1800-2000 RMP with light load at 45 just puttering along, the EGTs will be lower, lower boost, more air flow, this could lead up to the perfect storm.
Maybe some lugging of the engine to simulate the DSG it could prevent this. Either way, I think EGTs need to be kept higher and possibly lower air flow is needed to prevent this. That and an IC block off.

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I can attest to this one.... 40-45 in auto puts the engine down there. There are times where Gretchen will put herself into top gear doing between 30-35 but she has to pop out now and then as there is no such thing as a flat road around here. That is, unless you ride railroad tracks.

On my drive in this morning I was watching my exhaust out the back window of the JSW. Driving in the left lane moving with traffic the flow of cars was surging between 70 and 80 mph. My car had been on the highway for an hour or more at ~70mph - fully warmed up. Each time traffic surged forward I was able to keep WOT in 6th from ~70-80 mph. And each time I noticed big steamy "whuffs" of exhaust pouring out the back during WOT. I did not notice so much from the warmed up gassers around me. Temperature was 12-16 degrees....

I haven't compared my exhaust with other cars, but I have a theory that explains what you see.

The exhaust gases of gassers are hotter. The intake stroke on a diesel motor swallows a lot more cold air than a gasser which is throttled. This results in cooler exhaust gases. This is one reason why diesels take longer warming up than gassers.

The cooler exhaust gases of a diesel would show their water content more easily because it cools down to its dew point before the air turbulence mixes it with dryer air from outside.

The exhaust of gassers on the other hand, even though it contains just as much water, takes longer to cool down to its dew point. By the time it cools down, the dryer outside air has mixed with the moist exhaust reducing ithe dew point of the exhaust gases. The result is that you don't see its vapour as easily.

On the steamy exhaust issue.... I never noticed any steam during warmup in my Jetta. Was there moisture in its exhaust, of course. But what's the difference? The hatchback. The same wind turbulence that splatters crap all over the backside of a hatchback is also going to swirl that exhaust steam a lot more.

That said, moisture in the exhaust and low pressure EGR system seems like a logical possible contributor for intercooler ice. Has anyone confirmed with VCDS that the low pressure EGR is active during warmup? There's also an post-injection that happens during warmup, could this be a contributor somehow?

It'd be interesting to know how the low pressure EGT works, whats it's duty cycle under normal driving vs agressive, vs idling. My guess is that under WOT it's realitivly closed off.

Also doesn't it take a while for the EGT's to climb? if you try pulling it from 70-80 under WOT, I don't think you'd raise the EGT's a whole heck of a lot as you're still moving quite a bit of air through the system.

Either way it's still interesting to compare the engine and the exhaust to other cars on the highway, and you may be on to something.

MayorDJQ said:

That said, moisture in the exhaust and low pressure EGR system seems like a logical possible contributor for intercooler ice. Has anyone confirmed with VCDS that the low pressure EGR is active during warmup? There's also an post-injection that happens during warmup, could this be a contributor somehow?

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According to the Self Study document on the 2.0 Common Rail Engine, the low pressure EGR operates at high load and high rpm conditions so I doubt if it is a factor during idling conditions.

The presence of moisture in the exhaust system various according to how much fuel is being burnt and much air the motor is pumping. I am sure the post-injection creates the moisture in the tail pipe. Not only because of the extra fuel that is being burnt, but also because the tail pipe at that time is cold and moisture would condense and stay inside. But I doubt that the EGR (low pressure) would have anything to do with it, unless EGR operation increases fuel consumption - which it probably does somewhat.

Hmm, forgot to mention, my exhaust flap was not working this year. I was going to try freeing it up during my last oil change, but couldn't get the connector off, had too walk away before i broke something.

P.s once the exhaust system is warmed up, it should eliminate any moisture build up.

I used too eat up exhaust systems on my gas cars every few years back when i only lived 2 min from work. Rusted from the inside out.

It would seem to me that since low pressure EGR is used more during high-load, high rpm conditions, that my WOT runs from 2000-2250rpm in 6th would likely correspond to a higher-than-average level of low pressure EGR. The turbo is at full boost pressure, and the higher fueling level will create more exhaust energy as well as more partially burned fuel that can be directed back through the LPEGR circuit to effect NOx reduction.

I was suspecting that increased LP EGR @ WOT + increased fueling was contributing to the steam. I suppose it is also possible that EGT's rose enough to melt out bits of frost, if any, that may have been accumulated in the IC - but I don;t know about this. I don't have a VCDS to monitor any of this - I am starting to get pretty interested in picking one up.

To clarify my previous post this morning - I could see no exhaust from my car while cruising steadily at 70mph & 2000 rpm in 6th. Only when I pressed the throttle open fully did I see any exhaust. Regarding other cars on the highway - it was pretty easy to tell who was warmed up and not. Warmed up gassers were emitting no steam, even WOT, and folks that just got on the highway were streaming steamy exhaust continuously. It was interesting to me that I could see such a marked difference in my exhaust between steady operation at 2000rpm and WOT @ 2000 rpm.

I think also the CR engines tend to keep excess air to a minimum. Using EGR and other tricks. With excess air minimized, there is less free O2 in cylinder to create NOx. But whatever you do to minimize excess air, you will create higher relative humidity in the exhaust stream. Higher rh in exhaust stream makes for more steam out back, and also higher rh in egr-rich intercooler process flow.

My car was hard starting again this morning and ran terrible for about 5 miles then cleared up........ But now my wife just called and is stranded at work. Won't start again! I just got the car back last week. I'm going to pull the inter-cooler line myself and see what happens. I'll let you all know.

TDI Koche said:

My car was hard starting again this morning and ran terrible for about 5 miles then cleared up........ But now my wife just called and is stranded at work. Won't start again! I just got the car back last week. I'm going to pull the inter-cooler line myself and see what happens. I'll let you all know.

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Arghhhh, what a drag!!! Probably too late by now, but if you pull the lines yourself you should make sure to drain the IC connections at the bottom of the car, they are probably full of water by the sounds of your no start. A nice trick to try in whatever parking lot your wife was stranded in, with tools you probably didn't bring to work!!

Interested to hear what happens. You are just outside powertrain warranty but since VW has admitted an open investigation and pending TSB on this matter I would be applying some serious leverage for them to reimburse you for your previous dealer visit, as well as any future service required to deal with this until they release the TSB, as well as warranty any engine damages caused by this up to now, and through when the TSB is released. You should not be liable for damage caused by this. It is VW's design issue. I would also be requesting a compression test of your engine at VW's expense. Seems like yours has seen a lot of water lately.

I know these requests are perhaps outside the scope of the strictest warranty interpretation - but something is wrong when you have a car less than 2 years old with a VW acknowleged warranty issue that you are paying for out of pocket.

TDI Koche said:

My car was hard starting again this morning and ran terrible for about 5 miles then cleared up........ But now my wife just called and is stranded at work. Won't start again! I just got the car back last week. I'm going to pull the inter-cooler line myself and see what happens. I'll let you all know.

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Which transmission - 6M or DSG?

I'm curious if what 507.00 oil we're using may affect the amount of oily goop we find in the IC. My theory is some 507.00 oils might be more prone than others to leaking past the turbo seals and/or produce more vapors that come out thru the CCV and get into the intake.

My 2010 JSW TDI has been extremely good on oil consumption. I drove it like I stole it from day one as soon as I was out of sight of the dealer's lot. Oil consumption was high during the first 3k miles and then almost completely stopped using oil after that. Meanwhile performance really woke up and MPGs improved during those 3k miles. Now it hardly uses a drop between 10k mile OCs and MPGs are in the low 40s while driving it like I stole it. This represents a significant improvement in oil consumption compared to older TDIs where consumption of 0.5L to 1L over 10k miles was considered normal.

If your CR TDI appears to be consuming oil, check the IC...it might be gooping up there!

OK, so what oil are y'all using in your 2009-2011 CR TDIs? I think it would be good to capture this info for the record to see if there is any correlation at all with iced up ICs.

I'm using Liqui Moly TopTec 4200 5W-30 507.00 oil. I get it in 5L jugs from IDparts.com. Great stuff.
http://www.idparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_127&products_id=1966

Castrol so far, haven't eaten any oil over the 3 changes it's had.

I run Total 5-30 in the 507 form. Does the oil come from the CCV or the turbo seals? these cars have a very advanced ccv system. I have never noticed a loss of oil in my car. On my last oil change the level was right where I left it 10k before.

bsalbrig said:

I run Total 5-30 in the 507 form. Does the oil come from the CCV or the turbo seals? these cars have a very advanced ccv system. I have never noticed a loss of oil in my car. On my last oil change the level was right where I left it 10k before.

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The CCV is advanced, but I would think a little oil might get past the cyclonic traps, and some will leak through the turbo seals.

Again....

I posted this on another forum...

Yesterday 0600am on the highway form Montreal to Ottawa I suddenly lost power and got the glow plug light and the check engine light at the same time. After an hour of waiting for the Tow Truck the engine came on again without any warning lights (???).
Got towed anyway to the next VW dealer where they found an ice plug in the intercooler hose as described so many times in many posts in many different forums. The dealer keeps the car until this evening. They said: Everything is cleaned and thawed (!!) and there is no solution to the problem. They even put that elbow joint back to its place.

They stated that next time I could just wait in the car and continue my journey once the car runs again... (What????!!)

I drive this every day and I need a reliable (and fuel efficient) ride. VW get your act together!! This is unacceptable! One more time I get stuck on the highway with -15° C OAT and I will see the CAMVAP.

soulflyer said:

They stated that next time I could just wait in the car and continue my journey once the car runs again... (What????!!)

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Wow, just wow. Just how bad can warranty service get - they expect a car to thaw outside on the side of the road in an Ontario winter? Unbelieveable...

Just wondering - Did you drive in the snowstorm Wednesday before your freeze-up before your freeze up Thursday?

Thank god no... I drove Thursday early, no snow during my ride. My car is always outside and the temp here in Montreal was pretty consistent between -8° C and -15° C over the last week...
I keep you updated...

So, where is the TSB from VW on this? Reworked parts? ECU re-flash?... <sound of crickets>

soulflyer said:

I posted this on another forum...

Yesterday 0600am on the highway form Montreal to Ottawa I suddenly lost power and got the glow plug light and the check engine light at the same time. After an hour of waiting for the Tow Truck the engine came on again without any warning lights (???).
Got towed anyway to the next VW dealer where they found an ice plug in the intercooler hose as described so many times in many posts in many different forums. The dealer keeps the car until this evening. They said: Everything is cleaned and thawed (!!) and there is no solution to the problem. They even put that elbow joint back to its place.

They stated that next time I could just wait in the car and continue my journey once the car runs again... (What????!!)

I drive this every day and I need a reliable (and fuel efficient) ride. VW get your act together!! This is unacceptable! One more time I get stuck on the highway with -15° C OAT and I will see the CAMVAP.

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I didn't think that removing the elbow would help. When you're doing 65mph on the highway, how much warmer is the intake w/ the elbow off?

IFRCFI said:

So, where is the TSB from VW on this? Reworked parts? ECU re-flash?... <sound of crickets>

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I'm wondering about this myself.

MY 2010 Jetta TDI got towed into Autohaus VW in Winnipeg again today. 2nd time in a month. Same problem, frozen intercooler.
Last month they removed the elbow feeding the airbox hoping that it would get warmer air from the engine compartment but no luck.
Spoke with VW Canada tonight and they apparently have not heard and have no record of these problems. Sounds like this is going to drag out.