Timing Belt failure

I would like to start out by saying I am a long time reviewer (Owner of an 01 NB 1.9L TDI, completely stock) of the forum and have found many of the discussion threads both helpful and informative. However, now I really need help. On the way to work this morning, I lost the timing belt (110,640 total miles, 45,000 on second timing belt), which reportedly was rated for 80,000 miles. The car was towed to a local dealer who quoted $ 5000.00 to fix the car. The area that I need help with is how to diagnose the effects of the "shredded" belt. I would like to minimize the cost of this repair by replacing the damaged and wear parts. I am not convinced at this point in time that the entire engine needs replacement. Is it possible to verify the extent of the damage, (Hoping for a best case cylinder head replacement) economically, or will the diagnosis related expenses overcome the cost of the entire motor. Any thoughts, comments and or general abuse would be greatly appreciated. BTW I have had a mix of dealer and owner maintenance over the life of the car. I have performed the most of the work recommended by forum contributors myself (Intake cleaning,etc) and the dealer performed the TB replacement work. I had planned on performing the TB replacement myself this spring. I am somewhat capable and have some mechanical experience, I have performed tasks such as headers, intake, fuel pumps, brakes, tie-rod ends misc. bolt on parts on domestic vehicles without major problems. I have common hand tools and pneumatic tools...please help.

Wow, sorry to hear. The first and obvious point is that your belt failed at about the halfway point of its rating. That could raise questions about anything from the installation to the possible failure of something else causing the belt to snap. You should push them to really give you a cause of the failure. They aren't going to accept any responsibility unless you push them to.

Has the belt been checked since the installation? How are the other components, such as the tensioner or water pump?

An 80k mile belt failing at 45k is pretty scary.

I wonder if they replaced the tensioner when they replaced the timing belt. Might be worth pulling your old invoice to see.

Just curious! Has this belt had the tention checked every 10K ? /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Joe i know where a 99.5 Jetta is with 59000 miles on it ; 2500 dollars Motor and Turbo ; pfleece @columbus.rr.com

To answer some of the posted questions, I have not had the tensioner checked every 10,000 miles, I drive approximately 70,000 miles a year and was hoping to change the entire assembly later this spring. The car is currently being diagnosed by a VW mechanic who was recommended by a towing company in my area and he will help determine the extent of the damage. I called VW and spoke with an advocate who stated that the company's position with respect to warranty obligations is clearly identified in the owners manual. I would like to investigate the root cause further, however, I do not have the time nor expertise to enter into a long legal battle. A close friend of mine is an excellent contract attorney and his advice was to write a letter documenting the situation and lack of accountability and then hope for the best. I still do not know how to diagnose the extent of the damage, I'm not sure if there is a method to establish compression with the valves in the condition they are in now. I do not know if the pistons require non-destructive testing to establish their condition or would a visual inspection be adequate. I would like to get information on how to move forward, rather than establishing a root cause analysis. I still would like to do a root cause, but my personal obligations require concentrating on moving forward at this time....

tensioner inspection every 10k miles? is that really a requirement in the warranty? i didn't know that...

There are better guys than me to give you advice, but this is what I would do:

1. remove the valve cover and check the condition of the cam and lifters.

2. check the tensioner to see if it broke.

3. pull the head and look at the valves and piston crowns. If the crowns are dented/bashed, then chances are the rods are bent.

4. You could visually check for bent rods by removing the oil pan (look for debris in the oil).

If the engine was running at full power when this happend, chances are pretty good it's toast. If it was more like idling, then maybe only the head needs replacing.

If it's just the head components, it may be cheaper to replace the head than to rebuild it. Same for the engine. People have posted $500 for a head and $2500-$3000 for an engine.

You need to find out if the tensioner was replaced when the last belt was replaced. If it wasn't, you should have grounds for getting VW or the dealer to cover some of the cost.

Good luck.

as others said--pull all the old reciepts--check what was done--and be ready to fight the dealer--no excuse on their part for this happening-----shouldnt be your problem-----

if they replaced the belt with the 02 longer life belt they have to replace the tensioner. the stock 01 belt will not fit... did they replace belt with a stock 01 belt? then they would not have had to replace tensioner. any way...as has been said, if you were at speed when the belt let loose the better part of the upper end of the engine is not useable. bottom end and block should still be salvageable if you didn't grind up the valve heads along the combustion chambers. still a lot of bucks. very sorry for your mishap. when i had my 2000 belt changed at 40k i ordered all the parts first, then had the dealer mechanic-tech do the work. i asked for all the parts relaced, everything, to be given to me. i spoke with the mechanic-tech before he started the work and explained my understanding of the procedure and what i expected and what he could expect. as far as i can tell so far with 21k on new belt he did a good job. i check belt for wear and tension every oil change along with pump timing. wish i could be more proactive with your situation.---

Man, I don't know if I'll be able to sleep at night unless I do the belt myself and change everything that it touches!

I haven't seen the inside of a TDI engine. But, I have seen the inside of many, many old style VW Diesels. Typically in the old styles, if you were traveling pretty fast when a belt broke the head was history. The cam followers would usually jam up in there holes and the cam would break. The pistons would get stamped by the exhaust valves. If the engine was idling when the TB broke the exhaust valves and valve guides were damaged and the pistons were stamped (no harm). I have seen a 1.6 with a bent rod due to the head gasket leaking coolant into the cylinder overnight. When the engine was started the next morning .... bam when the rod .... followed by a distict misfiring and lots of anti-freeze steam/smoke coming out the tail pipe. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry about your problem, I hope you get it resolved satisfactorily. I would go for a used engine from a reputable salvage yard or a source referenced here by a TDIer.

Whenever I read posts like this ....it is really a bummer..I can not imagine how you (the owner) are feeling..."sad" would be an understatement.

Reading this made me think about a timing belt I replaced not long ago...and the "intervention" could not have happened a mile sooner.
What we discovered when the timing belt (TB) covers were removed was a TB that was being devoured by the TB tensioner.....at the same time..it was the tensioner which was keeping the TB on the path...but was also ripping the belt to shreads.

To regress justa bit...what we (the owner & I) discovered was that the TB idlers/ roller bearings were worn which caused the TB to ride against the inside face of the tensioner roller.

This is why it is important to inspect your TB at least every oil change or even more frequently....when you may be doing other scheduled maintenance....perhaps it would be wise to pop the TB cover..and have a good look:
What do you look for ..when you inspect your TB ?
1. Look for evidence of excessive belt dust on the inside TB cover.

2. Look at the TB edges for evidence of wear or fraying
3. Inspect the tensioner to ensure that the raised "tooth" is aligned to the "notch".
4. Surface cracks
5. Traces of oil or fuel ( An oil contaminated TB MUST be replaced..no ifs...ands or buts..no exceptions EVER!)

Take that as a cautionary note: When you are replacing your fuel filter..or draining the water serpeator....be careful (real careful).
I'll also add ..when you are changing your oil...when you are pouring your oil into the engine...becareful...use a funnel..and pour slowly.( Do not the loil drip onto the TB cover / area.

My opinion...now when I replace a TB...at every OTHER TB service..to replace the idlers / rollers & water pump.

You are right Herm I haver all the listed parts and will travel north as soon as it warms up.....

Whether the warranty requires it or not a check of the belt & tensioner is a good idea every 10,000 miles or after a long drive .


I had a intermediat shaft pully come loose on my 85 TD after a trip from California to North Carolina . I heard a really bad sound coming from under the hood so I killed the engine . My timing belt had gotten cut to just a 1/4 " wide , very close to failure .


Every since I always check the belt & tensioner after every trip across country . Those new type tensioner , spring adjusted are a good compromise , but they do have weaknesses . This design has been in use since the mid 1994 model year on diesels in North America . Now this design does scare me a little more than the older style tensioner , but this design does reduce injection pump , cam , & belt wear . The only problems that I've seen are the tensioner springs failing , but only when the belt has been over tightened .

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. 5. Traces of oil or fuel ( An oil contaminated TB MUST be replaced..no ifs...ands or buts..no exceptions EVER!)

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During all my years driving the old style, the only TB break I experienced was my on fault. I had spilled diesel fuel on the belt (don't ask how!). Anyway, I kept putting off changing the belt until it was too late. Luckily, the engine was just idling down when the belt broke. Head off, replaced the exhaust guides and valves, new gasket and back on. Ran fine! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Dang, why don't Volkswagen go to a chain instead of a belt. Couldn't add that much to the price.

Chains expand making timing not as precice , lowering efficiency . Also chains cost many times as much to replace and also must be replaced at a specified interval . A much shorter interval than on their gasoline power counter parts .

problem: when the belt brakes the crank and cam go out of timing causing the valves to hit the pistons...why is there not a piston design available that has indents to allow the valve to not hit the piston? any engineer types out there who might have some insight? this engine seems to hit exhaust valves...to much lift not enough diameter in the valve? i know, a lot of questions...not enough answers /images/graemlins/confused.gif

With such high compression in the deisel I don't think it possible to put an indention that deep into the piston without effective efficiency too much. The lobes on the cam are very long and narrow. I have seen gasoline engines with shorter and longer lobes.

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Dang, why don't Volkswagen go to a chain instead of a belt. Couldn't add that much to the price.

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The biggest reason is noise. VW has gone through a lot of work to make these engines quieter like the cars people expect, and not like Mack trucks. They're trying to convince people that diesel cars aren't as bad as they remember from the '70's, so they traded increased maintenance for lower noise.

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With such high compression in the deisel I don't think it possible to put an indention that deep into the piston without effective efficiency too much. The lobes on the cam are very long and narrow. I have seen gasoline engines with shorter and longer lobes.

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Very true , no way to get the high compression or concentrated combustion in the piston . The piston comes within half the thickness of a hair to the head , so not much room for error . So a non-interference TDI is not possible .

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Dang, why don't Volkswagen go to a chain instead of a belt. Couldn't add that much to the price.

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The biggest reason is noise. VW has gone through a lot of work to make these engines quieter like the cars people expect, and not like Mack trucks. They're trying to convince people that diesel cars aren't as bad as they remember from the '70's, so they traded increased maintenance for lower noise.

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why do gassers have belts then??? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Inpsect the water pump on this motor.

The only that that will need to be replaced is the head provided a valve did not break off in the engine.

DB

Chains are used on non-interference engines mostly . These engines can more easilly deal with the expansion of the chain which changes timing slightly . Also if the chain does break no harm done .

These are not options on a TDI diesel . Plus the the main reason , a belt might cost $500 to $1,000 to replace while a chain would cost $2,500 to $4,000 to replace . No contest , the belt wins /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But on interference engines belts are the normal option .

Thanks for the information. Learning a lot about Volkswagen diesels. I can understand the noise and efficiency issues, but to totally screw up a good engine on a timing belt seems like poor engineering. I have over 243,000 on my Merc S-350 and have not even looked at the timing chain. They don't even list any maintenance on it in the book. I looked up the replacement cost and the chain is $122 with 3.5 hr. book labor.

With all this talk about belt vs. chain timing system I thought I'd muddy the waters a little more. All the industrial diesel engines I see like the Cummins B3.9L, B5.9L & C8.3L as well as Isuzu & Mitsubishi diesels all have gear driven timing systems. There is never any belt or chain to replace. I guess the biggest trade-off & reason you won't see this in a passenger car is noise. I could only imagine if these industrial engines were belt driven how many overhauls or replacement we'd do. They don't live an easy life.

Ford's Navistar diesels also have timing gears. They're very quiet.

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Thanks for the information. Learning a lot about Volkswagen diesels. I can understand the noise and efficiency issues, but to totally screw up a good engine on a timing belt seems like poor engineering. I have over 243,000 on my Merc S-350 and have not even looked at the timing chain. They don't even list any maintenance on it in the book. I looked up the replacement cost and the chain is $122 with 3.5 hr. book labor.

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Having seen chains fail at much lower miles , I wouldn't say that very loud . /images/graemlins/eek.gif /images/graemlins/eek.gif /images/graemlins/eek.gif

I saw a Quantum 1.6 TD go 10 years & 125,000 miles without a belt breaking , but I'm not that brave or stupid . And more than likely not that lucky .

I'm guessing that MB service interval replacement of the chain was in the 100,000 to 150,000 miles range . I saw a Toyota chain fail at 180,000 miles and it was more than an inch longer than the replacement . The parts alone 20 years ago were $500 + . And when a chain is replaced the tensioner and sprokets must also be replaced .

I replaced a belt on one of my 1997 TDIs' a couple of months ago wholesale $20 for belt , $22 for tensioner = $42 for entire job . I just washed the valve cover seal with brake part cleaner .

So $42 vrs $ 500 in 1983 dollars ????

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I'm guessing that MB service interval replacement of the chain was in the 100,000 to 150,000 miles range . I saw a Toyota chain fail at 180,000 miles and it was more than an inch longer than the replacement . The parts alone 20 years ago were $500 + . And when a chain is replaced the tensioner and sprokets must also be replaced .

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there is no chain replacement schedule on an MB
the cam timing can be easily checked for chain stretch. Usually chains can go the life of the engine,"if regular oil changes were made". Otherwise the chains will strech pre-maturely