NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

BleachedBora · Feb 11, 2011

Report: NHTSA investigation into 100,000 VW and Audi diesels intensifies

As posted here.

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According to The Detroit News, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration is turning up the heat on its investigation into faulty Volkswagen fuel pumps. The administration has announced that it is currently looking into 97,272 diesel Volkswagen and Audi vehicles after receiving a total of 160 complaints about the issue. NHTSA says that in roughly half of those complaints, the bad pumps resulted in an engine stall on the highway or in traffic that prevented the engine from being restarted. Even so, no major accidents have been attributed to the faulty pumps, though one minor fender-bender has been reported as a result of the issue.

The investigation covers 2010 Golf hatchbacks, 2009-2010 Jetta sedans and certain 2010 Audi A3 models as well.

Volkswagen says that the fuel pump issues that it has encountered have resulted from diesel fuel that has been contaminated with gasoline. The company says that even a small amount of gas mixed in with diesel fuel can cause the pumps to shut down. Unfortunately for thusly affected owners, fuel system damage due to using the wrong fuel won't be covered under warranty.

Meanwhile, Volkswagen has informed NHTSA about 120 separate fuel slip-ups, some of which came courtesy of dealers and service personnel using the wrong fuel.

~Jb · Feb 11, 2011

NHTSA intensifies probe into 100,000 VW diesel vehicles

David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau said:
Federal safety regulators stepped up an investigation into nearly 100,000 Volkswagen and Audi diesel vehicles over fuel pump failures.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said today it had upgraded its investigation into 97,272 diesel 2009-10 Volkswagen Jetta, 2010 Volkswagen Golf and Audi A3 vehicles.
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NHTSA said it's received 160 complaints; approximately half of the reports said the failure resulted in an engine stall incident, with many of these alleging stall incidents at highway speeds in traffic with no restart.
There has been one minor crash alleged to have resulted from a high-pressure fuel pump failure.
NHTSA opened a preliminary investigation in February.
VW told NHTSA it had "found no defect related to motor vehicle safety with relation to the TDI Clean Diesel fuel system at issue in this investigation" and attributed problems with fuel pump failures to operation with gasoline contaminated diesel fuel.
Volkswagen said "even a small amount of gasoline in the diesel fuel may disrupt the necessary lubrication required and may cause" the fuel pump to fail.
VW issued a technical service bulletin in May 2010, telling dealers to inspect the diesel fuel for vehicles requiring fuel system service that have symptoms associated with fuel pump failure.
The bulletin said "fuel system damage" by using the wrong fuel will not be covered under warranty.
Volkswagen told NHTSA about 120 fueling incidents — including 20 reports involving incorrect fueling by dealer sales or service personnel and generally report symptoms such as rough running, stalling and/or no start within a few miles of refueling the vehicle with gasoline.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110211...into-100-000-VW-diesel-vehicles#ixzz1Dh60EoKR

So let me get this straight? 160 complaints for 97,000 cars sold?

Discuss.

MPBsr · Feb 11, 2011

Wow, this is very good news.

Lets hope it does end up as a "total recall".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How about making this a sticky?

jbright · Feb 11, 2011

fuzzybandito said:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/02/11/report-nhtsa-investigation-into-100-000-vw-and-audi-diesels-int/

Seems like autoblog got whiff of this. Publicity in this matter might be a good thing

Let's hope VW gets their act together and fixes this

Yes, the media are like sharks and someone just threw some blood in the water

.

ziggy55 · Feb 11, 2011

2 redesigns without new part number, wow tell me that doesn't sound like they are trying to hide something.

dzcad90 · Feb 11, 2011

ziggy55 said:
2 redesigns without new part number, wow tell me that doesn't sound like they are trying to hide something.

Parts get redesigned and improved all the time without a part number change.

quietpeen · Feb 11, 2011

I am glad to hear this as i know that i do not have the latest supposed redesign

lonniebear · Feb 11, 2011

New York Times picked up the story. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...stigation-of-97000-tdi-volkswagens-and-audis/

If you put Golf TDI in google news there is over 100 articles on this announcement.

Diesel_Aggie · Feb 11, 2011

VW Diesels Under U.S. Review for Fuel-pump Flaws

http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110211/RETAIL05/110219962/1493

Summary is NHTSA has received 160 complaints and one accident report due to stalls, some at highway speed that may be related to the fuel pump. NHTSA is upgrading the case to an Engineering Analysis which may lead to recalls. It affects 97,272 2009-2010 TDIs.

jbright · Feb 11, 2011

lonniebear said:
New York Times picked up the story. http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/201...stigation-of-97000-tdi-volkswagens-and-audis/

If you put Golf TDI in google news there is over 100 articles on this announcement.

It's nice to finally have a number to work with -- 97000 of these cars sold. I know VW has the number of HPFP failures, as well. Maybe they will be forced to divulge it to the public now.

timwagon · Feb 11, 2011

Runnerguy45 said:
VW is sticking with their arrogant attitude in all the articles, they are consistent. They still don't feel like they are responsible.

Well, they're not admitting any responsibility.

There's a lot of money riding on NHTSA's findings.

VW may need to recall 100,000 vehicles, and replace a fairly expensive part. They'll also be on the hook for the previously denied warranty claims, which could also be a substantial cost.

If the failure rate remains relatively low (somewhere between .53% and .11%) a good compromise might be an extended warranty, but NHTSA is concerned that this issue can stop a car dead on the highway, risking a crash and injuries / fatalities. If NHTSA finds a fault with the HPFP design, a recall appears likely.

We may need to wait a long time to get a final ruling, as NHTSA investigations are notoriously slow. The Toyota "sticky pedal" recall took years.

OhTDI10 · Feb 11, 2011

I saw this on the news today and was totally pissed!! I thought this issue was with 09s not 10s. I wish I would've bought the 2011. VW go F*** yourself for blaming consumers!

Plus 3 Golfer · Feb 11, 2011

This is very good news as NHTSA has ramped up the investigation from "preliminary analysis" to an "engineering analysis".

Hopefully, NHTSA will force the issue and VW will do a voluntary recall and replace the pumps with the latest version before someone is seriously injured. Also, maybe the major networks' investigative news teams will see this as a news worthy story.

Otherwise as timwagon says, "we may need to wait a long time to get a final ruling" from NHTSA.

GoFaster · Feb 11, 2011

Those of you who have reported these failures to NHTSA, would do well to stress whether or not there was a mis-fueling incident involved.

It's interesting and telling that they've had three running changes in the design of that pump. VW has never admitted that before.

GoFaster · Feb 11, 2011

~Jb said:
So let me get this straight? 160 complaints for 97,000 cars sold?

I would wager that only a fraction of actual failures result in a complaint to NHTSA. There are probably a fair number in which VW has done the work and paid the warranty claim and the vehicle owner never complained, and it certainly wasn't in VW's interest (at the time) to report it to NHTSA.

ruking · Feb 11, 2011

GoFaster said:
Those of you who have reported these failures to NHTSA, would do well to stress whether or not there was a mis-fueling incident involved.

It's interesting and telling that they've had three running changes in the design of that pump. VW has never admitted that before.

That might be a partial explanation on why the part numbers (P/N''s have remained the same. Normally there is at least a designator change to indicate an upgrade, design change, etc, etc.

CedarPark68 · Feb 11, 2011

I know for a time the list was being kept up, that list on this forum should be re-highlighted.

A new single post thread should be created for those on the list to send their info to a MOD to update.
It should be noted if those on the list contacted NHTSA.
It should be noted if those on the list did mis-fuel.

NHTSA claims 50 direct complaints. I do not believe that each person on the board list filed a complaint. Now would be the time to do so.

NorthernPlus · Feb 11, 2011

Fueling Receipts

I would suggest that everyone request and keep their fueling receipts going forward. They will not only record the station and date, but in many cases which pump you pumped fuel from.

Norbert

NorthernPlus · Feb 11, 2011

Fuel Filter Replacement - Dealer Install

Does anyone know if done by the VW manual is the dealer supposed to plug into the computer system and turn on the fuel pump to fill up the fuel filter before one turns the key for an engine start to prevent excess wear to an other wise dry fuel pump?

Norbert

Claudio · Feb 11, 2011

Great news, hopefully there will be a recall!

golfTDI1 · Feb 11, 2011

timwagon said:
Apparently, VW has learned nothing from the Toyota recall disaster.

Yeah, this HPFP problem does bear many similarities to the so-called "Toyota Recall Disaster"...and that is that none of the vehicles Toyota recalled were ever proven to have accellerated on their own. It was all hype. Its been proved now time and again through many studies.

VW is also being "plagued" (Really? Only 160 complaints to date?) by complaints and from what I've seen there really is no evidence that the pump is bad. There are many, many owners many on this and other forums who are pushing their CR TDIs into the 100,000 mile mark with no HPFP issues. I'm highly skeptical of the few problems that have been presented. If you use good quality, name brand diesel and don't let the car sit for long periods of time, change you're filter at proper interval and maybe use a good lubricity additive I don't think there is anything to worry about.

There are always a certain number of defects per batch of cars regardless of manufacturer or part so a small amount of defects will present themselves within the first few thousand miles and will be covered under warranty with the proper documentation. I know I'll catch some flack for this, but just my opinion, but this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

~Jb · Feb 11, 2011

golftdi1 said:
yeah, this hpfp problem does bear many similarities to the so-called "toyota recall disaster"...and that is that none of the vehicles toyota recalled were ever proven to have accellerated on their own. It was all hype. Its been proved now time and again through many studies.
Vw is also being "plagued" (really? Only 160 complaints to date?) by complaints and from what i've seen there really is no evidence that the pump is bad. There are many, many owners many on this and other forums who are pushing their cr tdis into the 100,000 mile mark with no hpfp issues. I'm highly skeptical of the few problems that have been presented. If you use good quality, name brand diesel and don't let the car sit for long periods of time, change you're filter at proper interval and maybe use a good lubricity additive i don't think there is anything to worry about.
there are always a certain number of defects per batch of cars regardless of manufacturer or part so a small amount of defects will present themselves within the first few thousand miles and will be covered under warranty with the proper documentation. I know i'll catch some flack for this, but just my opinion, but this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion.

+1

tiguando · Feb 11, 2011

^

Except that if the pump fails it's catastrophic and a $10,000+ repair that VW passes on to the owner regardless of fault. It's not like it's a few hundred dollars. I'm sure if you were one of the 160 you would be singing (screaming) a different tune.

tiguando · Feb 11, 2011

NorthernPlus said:
I would suggest that everyone request and keep their fueling receipts going forward. They will not only record the station and date, but in many cases which pump you pumped fuel from.

Norbert

Someone had pointed out that it would be a good idea to scan/photocopy the receipts as they are sometimes printed on that waxy paper that tends to fade over time.

~Jb · Feb 11, 2011

tiguando said:
^
Except that if the pump fails it's catastrophic and a $10,000+ repair that VW passes on to the owner regardless of fault. It's not like it's a few hundred dollars. I'm sure if you were one of the 160 you would be singing (screaming) a different tune.

How many TDIclub members that have experienced this "catastrophic" failure and have paid out of pocket to have the problem fixed?

We all read one side of this story, and assume that big bad VW is against us all and hiding something. I would not be singing a different tune at all, because I drive, wash, and fuel my car, so I trust IF I get the unlucky opportunity of becoming a member the HPFP failure club, that my dealership and VW will take care of me. I will not bash them and quote what others have said, when I have had no problems and only experience excellent service from my dealer and VW.

~jb

diesel313 · Feb 12, 2011

I hope the motor city Detroit Free Press picks this up. VW wants out money, they want to cheap out on everything while kia and hyundai move forward, and they expect us to buy their cars and have trust in them?? Not one review of the 6 VW dealers around metro detroit has positive posts. This does not mean im going to buy a kia or hyundai i love german cars and i will buy myself a TDI or a GLI but at least dont make me feel like i should go and buy a freaking kia because i do not want to. VW get your **** together, ***.!!!!!!!

ksing44 · Feb 12, 2011

I have to admit I was a little concerned about my wonderful 2010 Golf TDI having a big problem someday. I keep all my receipts and only stop at two busy Sunoco stations that currently have 2% biodiesel in their pumps in Pennsylvania. I think I'm doing all the right things, so with this report now it seems much more likely that VW will fix the car if something goes wrong. It won't be that long until I pass the 36,000 mile mark and I think with this report VW might take care of things even out of the milage warranty. That is if I have full documentation for my fueling. Hopefully it will be either VW or Sunoco that has to pay the bill if something goes wrong, not me. I do love my little car!!!

turbocharged798 · Feb 12, 2011

tiguando said:
^

Except that if the pump fails it's catastrophic and a $10,000+ repair that VW passes on to the owner regardless of fault. It's not like it's a few hundred dollars. I'm sure if you were one of the 160 you would be singing (screaming) a different tune.

Exactly. It's an engineering fail that a failed pump results in thousands in repair costs.

Like the above poster said if it was just a couple hundred to replace the pump it's self, no big deal.The fact that VW can tell the owner that we will not cover the $8 grand bill because of bad fuel on his brand new TDI with 20K miles on it is quite frankly ridiculous, absurd, and unethical.

dubStrom · Feb 12, 2011

~Jb said:
So let me get this straight? 160 complaints for 97,000 cars sold?

Discuss.

Don't forget that failure does not result in replace pump, prime, start, drive off. The fuel system design in this case allows metal shavings to prefuse throughout the system, including the tank. Failure results in the replacement of the gas tank, injectors, and lots of other stuff in between. It is not a trivial problem. I used to see it as a $10,000 mallet poised over the head of every single 2.0 liter CR engine owner. This latest news regarding HPFP redesigns reveal that VW actually WAS aware of the problem, though dealerships were denying it.

This fuel system design essentially adds a new service interval not entirely different than, say, timing belt replacement (which also fails catastrophically)... replace fuel pump at xxx,xxx miles (before it fails and you have to replace the whole system.

bhtooefr · Feb 12, 2011

The problem is, it's almost looking like, in some cases, the pumps either start failing right away, and slowly fail over a long, long period of time, or they catastrophically fail all of a sudden.

So, replacing a $1000 pump every 20,000 miles won't solve the problem.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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