Measuring Block 13 - what are normal values?

First of all - I'll say it just as others said it before: You guys are great! I really, really mean it!

Definition of Group 013

This group shows the smooth running control injected quantity cylinder 1 - 4, left to right. Values expected -2.0 - + 2.0 mg/R

This is showing how the ECM is balancing the power for each cylinder at idle to account for variations in component tolerances, jet sizes, compressions, etc.).



So now, the questions are:

1. What are the "acceptable" ranges for values in Group 013?

2. I believe that usually - when there is no actual injector issue - all values add up to approximately 0. Would you agree to this?

3. What about group 023? This appears as undocumented, but it seems to be closely related to 013... would it be Injector Opening Time, % Duty Cycle or similar? If so, 023 relates to 013 - as flow should be proportional to opening time.

4. How come that PD engines typically show a larger spread between injectors than non-PD ones? For example, the ALH we have is at around +/- 0.05mg/Stroke while the BXE (PD) is +/- 0.7 to 0.9 mg/Stroke.

Thank you!

it would be interesting to see a guru's reply to this

Values expected -2.0 - + 2.0 mg/R

Click to expand...

that is your answer. Closer to zero is best. I doubt that it means anything if the numbers add up to zero.

Well, not really. According to some extra information from Franko6 and others here, it looks like a +/-1.5 end even less can mean compression issues.

Frank diagnosed a worn cam based on an imbalance of 1.3, if I'm not mistaken.

I partly agree to what you said: +/-2.0 is the point where the injector will be officially dead. Kind of like the 1L oil consumption/1000Km (1Q/700miles?). I doubt anyone would accept such an oil consumption from his/her daily driver.

I doubt you could be definitive in diagnosing any issue using the cylinder imbalance figures. Summing all the figures to zero proves nothing either.

You cannot tell whether an imbalance is due to fuel, compression, relative timing, or a mechanical bind, just based on a number...

Agreed. Hence the question related to Group 023.

I guess I'm looking for something like a simple classification made based on experience, for example:
Green: 0 to say 0.8 mg/Stroke
Yellow: 0.9 to 1.4
Red: 1.5 and above.

I have seen Franko6 talk of new nozzles that could flow up to a 40% difference from each other. He has a method of flow testing them and uses it to produce sets that are within tolerance and closely matched. Knowing this flow would not necessarily be proportional to opening time unless somebody has gone through the trouble of producing a matched set.

If you see an imbalance over your own particular limit, it is an indication that you may need to troubleshoot for the cause.

As frank06 indicates, the cam may be one cause (or maybe not), the injectors may be one cause (or maybe not), the compression may be one cause (or maybe not)...

Deciding when to investigate largely depends on the people involved. I look around pretty hard at +/-1.0 or more, but do not suggest that the owner spend any money on it, beyond an injector cleaning (lubro moly diesel purge for instance.) So far no owner has wanted to go further.

If it is a BRM, I look at the cam at +/-1.0. Sometimes for a BEW or other PD's I will look at the cam. But then, they can always be suspect...I never troubleshoot a BRM long for any engine running problem without looking at the cam. (I am running about 75% of inspected BRMs showing cam problems, and about 15% BEW.)

If it were over +/- 2.0, I would think something was wrong, and that I might be able to find it. I have not had this occur yet, even on badly worn cams. Diesel purge, Cam, compression, I would physically reset the PD injector rocker. If none of this worked, and the car was running ok, I would suggest to run it until an operational problem occurred, then try new (or used) injectors or nozzles.

I have looked at measuring blocks 23 and 13 on most PD's I check out, and can find NO correlation. (This surprised me as I was expecting a close correlation.) If anyone does see a correlation, please let me know.

Please do not take this as an authoritative answer; this is just what I do, or what I know so far. I am always willing to learn more.

My MVB013 are these: -0.7, -0.78, 0.08, 1.28. They didn't change after my cam/lifters replacement. I get pretty good mileage, no (cold) starting issues or oil consumpion/smoke problems. Knock on wood.

12:08:13 Group 013: Idle Speed Smooth Running Control
1.84 mg/str Cyl 1 -2 to +2
-0.61 mg/str Cyl 2 -2 to +2
-0.56 mg/str Cyl 3 -2 to +2
-0.64 mg/str Cyl 4 -2 to +2
Monday,15,February,2010,12:17:00:39172


That was results from an engine I worked on this week.
The original nozzles were in cylinders 2-4. Cylinder 1 nozzle was used also, but came from a different tdi, but was not working very good.

13:05:13 Group 013: Idle Speed Smooth Running Control
0.42 mg/str Cyl 1 -2 to +2
0.33 mg/str Cyl 2 -2 to +2
-0.21 mg/str Cyl 3 -2 to +2
-0.45 mg/str Cyl 4 -2 to +2

That's the reading after putting in chinesium .205 nozzles

No actual questions here, just interesting results

Andrew,
what engine was this on? An ALH?

Dan

Yes, that was an ALH

Here's group 013 of my 1Z at idle

Don't know if it's valid but this is group 013 at 2000 rpm

How do my group 013look?

On a healthy VE, I would want the numbers to be +/- 1.5, and if I just had the injectors/nozzles installed/balanced, I would want (expect) them +/1 1.0.

The VE does not register SMC numbers off idle, the PD does, as the PD's EDC16 system is quite a bit more complex in fueling tables.

Oilhammer, so what are the values you would expect to see in a PD, please?

And what about correlation with Gr 023? Does this make any sense? Would you know what 023 measures?

Thanks!

I have not checked enough PDs to know what a base line is, but I will have 2 of them here today I will be happy to check and see.

I will also look at 023 and get back with you.

I often use 23 and expect to see numbers no more lower than about -40
-60 under load. The lower this number is the less fuel is making it to your injectors. When you have a plugged fuel filter for instance this can be as low as -80 -90 or more. On the ohter hand a very high number here most likely means you have injector problems.

Joe,
Do you see a correlation between block 23 and 13?
Dan

Is it always from left to right?

My ARL has a defect nozzle, the cylinder 3 goes to 2.99 (max)

Is it the 3 from the t-belt or from the transmission?

019HH ECU

#1 is always furthest from the flywheel.
But VW does not always get this right in their computer systems. They usually do get it right on injectors, but not always on glow plugs.
edited to add "computer"

OK... my #3 is the second from the t-belt.

The cylinder closest to the TB in our VW's is #1, the next is #2, the next is #3, the one closes to the flywheel and transmission is #4 for inline 4 cylinders.

DanG144 said:

The cylinder closest to the TB in our VW's is #1, the next is #2, the next is #3, the one closes to the flywheel and transmission is #4 for inline 4 cylinders.

Click to expand...

Unless it is a B5. Those are numbered "correctly". Go figure.

OK, thanks.

It's 3rd from the t-belt.

It's a mess to change a nozzle on a PD, I don't want to change the wrong nozzle.

Check the wiring connection inside the valve cover first (if you have not already.)

Sometimes this connection fails to make contact, and just by cleaning the connector, and perhaps re-bending the copper you can get it working again.

You can also (I would) pull that electrical connector off of that injector and validate that the computer sees that cylinder as open.

If you run it with that one unhooked, and it ran the same, that would be further indication that you had the right one.

These injectors do not fail often, unless subjected to poorly filtered fuel or water, or bad fuel (poor BioDiesel, any WVO.)

Dan

It's since the nozzles were changed.

My engine has only 35000 miles.

It's running but it's way off when cold. It comes to 2.2 when warm.

oilhammer said:

On a healthy VE, I would want the numbers to be +/- 1.5, and if I just had the injectors/nozzles installed/balanced, I would want (expect) them +/1 1.0.

The VE does not register SMC numbers off idle, the PD does, as the PD's EDC16 system is quite a bit more complex in fueling tables.

Click to expand...

So numbers less than +/- .15 -.20 would show that the engine is quite healthy?

That's what I got last time I ran block 13 on my VCDS.

I never had the injectors balanced when I changed nozzles at 200K.

Yes, I would be happy with those numbers.