Hard Start is a Common Thread - VW Design Flaw??

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
I have scanned the various threads regarding hard starting issues and I would speculate that this is a very common and frustrating problem for many TDI owners. My 2000 Beetle has the average issues which I remedied with a VagCom change for the glow plug duration. I verified compression, timing, no air in fuel, fuel shutoff solenoid, egr valve, etc. The engine runs fine with no issues once started.

If I didn't have the VagCom option, it appears that the VW dealers offer no solution to this problem, other than replacing good parts with a shotgun troubleshooting approach. I've never read that the dealer will perform a GP duration adjustment.

It makes me wonder why VW decided to disable the glowplugs above 9C/48F. A new engine seems to start fine with this arrangement, but experience indicates that this is a dicey situation which can be degraded by many factors, resulting in hard start issues. It is unfortunate that VW did not foresee this issue and provide a system with a manual GP button that could assist in starting. Or design the ECU with an automatic 2 Second GP cycle regardless of temp.

Perhaps they were trying to promote the TDI in a difficult US market and wanted to portray the diesel as similar to a gas engine. Just jump in and start with no GP needed!

My TDI is still difficult in certain situations. It starts fine when warm or when it has been sitting long enough for the ECT to drop for the GP to come on. I'm in Anchorage and have found that at around 0F, the ECT remains around 25C after 2 hours sitting outside after shutdown. This disables the GP circuit, because the ECU thinks the engien is warm, but will not start with the 0F air. It does no good to cycle the ignition and GP cycle because the GP's get no juice at all in this configuration. If I wait another hour, the ECT drops, the GP's come on, and it starts immediately. Otherwise, it's crank and wait, crank and wait, cross your fingers, and as the battery eventually begins to wear down, the engine will kick over. I hate walking out the Beetle while studying my wristwatch. Will it start this time ? Whats the wind chill factor? How long has it sat? Is it pointed to magnetic North??;)

I am tempted to install my own GP activation circuit with a set of relays and a momentary button. Then I can give it a couple seconds of heat when needed, regardless of what the ECU thinks.

The other option appears to be putting a momentary switch into the ECT sensor circuit, fooling the ECU into thinking it's cold. There are several threads dealing with this approach. This also activates some injection timing advance which also helps with a hot start problem that some have.

I kind of like the brute force external relay method. It avoids the possible fault codes from the ECU. And I control the GP cycle directly.
 

TDIJetta99

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Port Jervis, New York, USA
TDI
03... Faster than yours =]
Bugdope said:
Sure. Great thread ! I have mine set at 32650 right now. But this still provides no heat in the scenario I described above^
I set mine down to 32550.. the gp's cycle every time up to about 55C.. 18C coolant temp the gp's stay on for about 8 or 9 seconds.. it starts every time..
 

Zero10

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2004
Location
Calgary, AB
TDI
05 Golf TDI PD, Tiptronic
Even when it's 20*C out my glowplugs still come on for 2 seconds. I've driven it almost down to sea level (180') and they still cycle at those temps, originally I thought it was the altitude in Calgary.
Is there something wrong with my car? (If there is, I don't think I want to fix it)
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
TDIJetta99 said:
I set mine down to 32550.. the gp's cycle every time up to about 55C.. 18C coolant temp the gp's stay on for about 8 or 9 seconds.. it starts every time..
Thanks. I'll try a lower setting and see if it helps.
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
Doug Huffman said:
Ignorance is common in design flaw threads. To a newbie that would rather drivel than read, I imagine that does appear rude. Here, let me stroke your self-esteem; you're sooo smart, literate, acute. There, feel better, Dope?
As you are listed as a veteran member, I shouldn't have to explain that this is just a discussion. If you have a lot of experience and wisdom to share, why not take the high road and be constructive??
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
dope, are you 100% certain your coolant temp sensor is the updated green one and not the trouble-prone black one? Also, where does your battery voltage drop to during cranking? Is your IQ off? Often times worn pumps need the "hammer mod" for faster starts.

FWIW, TDIs typically start without any troubles down to about -10 F, then maybe a bit more cranking and smoking down to around -20 F. Below there and you may want a heater.

In this area the coldest it gets is maybe 0 F overnight/early morning. Single digits and low teens are more common for us (it is sunny an 21 F right now).

For winter, you may want to also look into a 0w30 synthetic oil that meets the proper diesel requirements, instead of the standard 5w40 synthetic. That may help speed up the cranking speed some.
 

chromeBuddha

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Location
Arlington, TX - DFW metroplex
TDI
2002 Golf TDI manual
Doug Huffman said:
Ignorance is common in design flaw threads. To a newbie that would rather drivel than read, I imagine that does appear rude. Here, let me stroke your self-esteem; you're sooo smart, literate, acute. There, feel better, Dope?
Ja, not sure what the problem here is...

It sounds like the block is retaining heat for long enough that the system, relying on only one input, thinks the environment is equally cozy. Then you try to suck in freezing air and fuel and the car starts hard. I am sure at this point the coolant in the rad and hoses is down close to 0F, but the tstat is closed so that doesn't get to the sensor... So when the car does finally start, can you turn on the heat and get relatively warm air? I would think at 0F, 77 degree air would seem warm.

You said you checked the timing. Was it near the top line of the graph? A little advance can go a long way.
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
Hi

Thanks for taking the time to read and make a few suggestions.

The timing is near the top of the envelope in the VagCom graph. So it appears to be set correctly. I originally suspected this must be the problem, before I checked it. Do you think it would be beneficial to advance the timing right to the line??

I may have a new clue. The car stranded me today and I had to have it towed to the shop. I had driven it at lunch and when I tried to start it up, the starter didn't engage the flywheel properly and I heard it spin up. I tried to restart and the battery would barely turn the engine over. I replaced the battery and the same thing happens. Must be a gremlin in the starter circuit or connections. Unfortunately I was 40 miles from home and tools, so I left it overnight for a mechanic to check it tomorrow.

Maybe I've had a starter/battery issue compounding my hard start issue, which is common here in the tdiclub....More news to follow.
 

Logismoi

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Location
GMT
TDI
PD
hi, once the glow plug light goes out and you turn the key, how many
chug, chugs....should there be before the car starts ? Even when NOT cold
it seems that my little golf is having HARD START issues

I'm asking about an 04 PD golf . . . thanks
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
oilhammer said:
dope, are you 100% certain your coolant temp sensor is the updated green one and not the trouble-prone black one?
Not sure about which sensor I have. I will check tomorrow. In what manner does the black one fail? I checked my sensors in the morning and they all agree when the car is cold overnight.
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
My starter is shot. The output gear spun the collar bearing and jammed. I'll get the car back tomorrow. I'm anxious to see if this fixes much of my previous starting problem....This must have been pulling a lot of current without spinning the engine properly.
 

DieselDriver2003

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Location
Demarest, NJ
TDI
2006 New Beetle GLS 5spd
Hey Jason,

I sent you a PM the other day, did you get it?

I need to talk to you so please PM me okay, got more work coming your way if you have time?

DD2003
TDIJetta99 said:
I set mine down to 32550.. the gp's cycle every time up to about 55C.. 18C coolant temp the gp's stay on for about 8 or 9 seconds.. it starts every time..
 

DieselDriver2003

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2003
Location
Demarest, NJ
TDI
2006 New Beetle GLS 5spd
On mine, one a really, really cold days, starting from scratch overnight cold, I have to turn the key but not start, 3 times before I get a nice, quick start. Big cloud of smoke should tell you that the motor was COOOORRRRDDDDD.
Logismoi said:
hi, once the glow plug light goes out and you turn the key, how many
chug, chugs....should there be before the car starts ? Even when NOT cold
it seems that my little golf is having HARD START issues

I'm asking about an 04 PD golf . . . thanks
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
Doug Huffman said:
Nope. An unloaded DC motor spins faster and pulls less current than a loaded one due to CEMF. You've obviously never made a starter-bomb (Hi ya CARNIVORE). Put a starter across a battery and run like heck 'cause it will come apart.
When it initially failed it spun free. Then it jammed and and would barely turn even with the tow trucks two large batteries attached.
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
Got the TDI Beetle back today. I wish it had broken at the house so I could have put the starter in myself. Paid the dealer price for parts and labor, but they were very professional, friendly, and got it done quickly.

The new starter and battery spins the engine over nicely now and my starts have been easy. I'll give it a good test commuting next week, although the temps have come up into the 30's now. I'm guessing that old starter was an issue ever since I bought the car.
 

MCathcart

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
North Myrtle Beach, SC
TDI
2003 Jetta
Guys,

This is Not A GP problem. It's a FUEL MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. When the engine is Cold the computer tells the system "MO FUEL" (and Heat tthe GP's). Mo-Fuel is Why the Tdi cranks instantly Hot. I have verified this by...

(While Engine Is HOT!!!!!)

1. Unplug the Coolant Temp Sensor.

2. Pull off the Glow Plug Harness (just unplugged from the plugs and left in place.

RESULTS=Instant Start. If you try this please note the engine RPM, it's HIGHER! Reason, MO-FUEL. Plug in the Temp Sensor and engine RPM lowers.

Now if you don't do #2, same thing will happen, INSTANT START. What this test tells me, Glow Plugs Don't Have Diddley To Do With Cranking Once The Engine Is HOT but Extra Fuel Does!
 

TDIJetta99

Top Post Dawg
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May 17, 2005
Location
Port Jervis, New York, USA
TDI
03... Faster than yours =]
What I'm wondering is what was changed inside the IP from 99.5 to 2000? So far I've only heard of 98-99 ALH's doing this, mine being no exception.. I've been looking at mine a little more lately and noticed if the cooland temp is under about 70C, it fires right up (MO-FUEL)... The newer TDI's seem to only crank over one compression stroke and fire up.. Mine when warm will crank over 2 or 3 (ok by me) compression strokes, Hot it will crank for 5 seconds or more..

I will figure out exactly what piece inside the IP is responsible for this.. I could really use a good donor pump from a newer model year and change pieces one at a time until the problem is fixed.. That'll do it..
 

MCathcart

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Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
North Myrtle Beach, SC
TDI
2003 Jetta
Was it Herm that said he'd been getting pumps rebuilt and the problem went away?

I would like to have a junk pump too. I think there was one on ebay someone started at a 100 frogs... I haven't checked to see where it's at now or even if it's ended.

My guess was that the suction side was weak so I added an electric pump before the Tdi IP and it made No Difference in cranking hot. I'm still going to to the Hammond Mod as soon as I get some time (and use a relay activated by the starter).
 

TDIJetta99

Top Post Dawg
Joined
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Location
Port Jervis, New York, USA
TDI
03... Faster than yours =]
yeah when the pump gets rebuilt the problem goes away.. That still doesn't answer the question of what exactly failed... Kind of like when you lose reverse in an automatic transmission.. The fix is to rebuild the trans, but the cause could've been a leaky reverse apply piston... I wanna know what's wrong witht he pump.. I don't buy the thing with the advance piston sticking.. It won't ONLY stick on a hot restart.. It will have other issues when the advance piston gets jammed.. Herm had also mentioned something about the pump losing its prime... That makes a little more sense, but I would think if the pump loses prime, it would still be hard to start when it cools off.. Unless there's a different fuel circuit that provides fuel when it's cool...
 

Bugdope

Active member
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Location
Alaska
TDI
2000 Beetle TDI
I read Herms post on the pumps. Good info. He was having them rebuilt in Portland, OR. Maybe the shop there could explain the failure. They seem to have a bench setup that can detect the troubles. Is the advance piston part of the cold start valve circuit?
 

Logismoi

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Location
GMT
TDI
PD
DieselDriver2003 said:
On mine, one a really, really cold days, starting from scratch overnight cold, I have to turn the key but not start, 3 times before I get a nice, quick start. Big cloud of smoke should tell you that the motor was COOOORRRRDDDDD.
my 2004 Golf PD has (it seems, once the keey is turned) to pump (?) three times before she starts ? . . . EVEN WHEN it's warm :confused:

Help someone, is this "normal" ?
 

TDIJetta99

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Port Jervis, New York, USA
TDI
03... Faster than yours =]
Bugdope said:
I read Herms post on the pumps. Good info. He was having them rebuilt in Portland, OR. Maybe the shop there could explain the failure. They seem to have a bench setup that can detect the troubles. Is the advance piston part of the cold start valve circuit?
The cold start valve is VW's name for the timing advance mechanism.. It doesn't give it more fuel when it's cold... You can see this in vag-com in one of the measuring blocks when the duty cycle of the cold start valve goes up, the timing advances..
 
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