Differences between 1.9 tdi PD cylinder heads?

JJJ777

Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Location
France
TDI
A4 b5 TDI 115 AJM
Hi everyone,

In advance, sorry for my english, I'm french :D



I would like to know if there are differences between cylinder heads of 1.9 tdi PD engines? Particulary between AJM tdi 115 and AWX tdi 130?


I explain me, I've a 1.9 tdi 115 AJM remap stage1 in my Audi A4 b5 but I broke a connecting rod. I would like only replace the engine block and cylinder head by AWX tdi 130 models, keeping all accessories of tdi 115 (ECU, PD, turbo, exhaust, etc...).



I already bought the AWX engine replacement but I'm not sure cylinder heads are the same. For me they are the same but someone put me in doubt :confused:. Part numbers are:
038 103 373C for AJM 115
038 103 373R for AWX 130


Thanks for your answers! :)
 

JB05

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Il.USA
TDI
Golf,2005,anthracite blue
Try to PM user name frank06; he is the expert for such things.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
other than a few things, you should be fine, Most 8 valve TDI engines have the same intake and exhaust port bolt pattern. things like oil pans, pully config, valve cover, are slightly different. Point is, you may need to do some fab here and there but most of it would be a direct swap. Frank here is the expert and my knowledge on the variations of these engines is limited.
Food for thought, not facts to go off of!
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Better late than never... Always too much to do. So, today, with the Christmas Eve, I give you my thoughts.

As for your English, it is much better than for me to attempt le français! It seems many from your country agree, especially when we TRY to speak le français! Heh...so, I won't.

The PD engines have many variants, but the 8v are virtually identical cylinder head castings with few differences. In the U.S., we have one BEW PD with flat-topped pistons and valves that recess. I do not know if there is a European clone to the BEW. The BEW valves are .5mm shorter for both Exhaust and Intake, compared to virtually all other PD cylinder heads, where valves project. The seats on the BEW appear to simply be cut deeper, recessing about .5mm. All others I am aware of, there are valve pockets in the pistons and valves project. The other difference are the blocks that have 81mm pistons require a larger head gasket cylinder hole, but even then, they are not a different cylinder head. Everything is the same except the head gasket to fit around the larger pistons.

As a side note, I think the BEW swirl chamber is more effective and efficient because of the flat-topped pistons.

The real differences between PD cylinder heads are what accessories are installed, as follows:

The valve lobe, intake and exhaust for all our American versions are identical. I understand there are some versions of European cams that have some overlap, which I am not sure I understand, but the big problem we find in all PD cam lobe designs are a solid lifter profile, which is very hard on hydraulic lifters. In our design, we reprofile with a hydraulic ramp, which greatly improves life-expectancy of the cam and lifters.

Cams have several variations for the injector lobe mechanical pilot pop and total lift. Even there, I think this can be a problem, as increasing lobe height increases pressure on an already over-loaded cam journal. The tallest injector lobe height we have seen is in the BRM, which I think is to increase atomization and reduce emissions for the US market. It's driving the smaller pistoned 7mm injectors. I liken the results similar to the 11mm rotary injection pump which are installed in the AHU and ALH automatic transmission cars, with tiny Bosch 658 nozzles. I truly understand why it is done that way. I just speculate.

Injectors, there are a lot of numbers, but not that many 'sizes'. Mostly, I think you can divide nozzles into three categories; Small, Medium and Large.

Lots of 'performance packages' are sold to increase power; some to over 200 or even 300 hp. After seeing many cylinder heads driven to destruction by over-powering them, our opinion is to consider the cylinder head fragile, especially between the injector bores and the intake seats. Most typically, a crack forms from the intake seat to the injector bore, that can advance all the way to the injector's seat, destroying the cylinder head. We are considering some solutions to that vexing problem.

There are many variations on nozzles and even more upgrades on nozzles that should only be done after careful consideration. A stock nozzle can often be driven well enough to provide a lot more fuel without overdriving the chipsets in the ECU or the limits of the cylinder head itself. If additional power is desired, tuning with existing nozzles should be attempted prior to dropping large dollars into upgrade injectors that will sacrifice your fuel economy for excessive horsepower. It seems all the upgrade injector nozzles are performed 'exchange', so once you commit, it may be a mistake that is hard to recover from.

I will also repeat...If injectors bodies are removed for any duration, store them in a container large enough to cover with diesel until they are to be reinstalled. The solenoids are subject to sticking and then it requires expensive, specialized equipment to restore them or rebuild them.

There are plenty of different ECU's in a variety of factory installations; everything from 100hp to 170hp 8v, that I know of. I wonder if some might simply tune out the immobilizer function and give it a try. This, along with the proper nozzles and lobe height and shape, can be massive improvements or massive destruction. The window for injection is to say the least, tricky business. Work with a tuner you can trust.

In the Spirit of Christmas, I wish you all a great holiday.

Peace on Earth. Good will to all.
 
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maxmoo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
Lakefield, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2000 golf, 2001 golf, 2000 beetle, 2003 wagon, 2004 golf, 2004 jetta, all diesels
Franko6, do you happen to know if the "ATD" cyl head, complete with injectors and cam, would be an exact replacement for a "BEW" head?


The reason that I ask is I have picked up two "ATD" NOS long block engines in crates and I have a high milage "BEW" that would probably benefit from a new head.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Oh, btw: The cam 038 103 373R for AWX 130 is the same as the BEW cam. Our modifications are mostly applied to that cam design, using the injector lobe pattern as it is and altering the lift and radius to create a true hydraulic profile cam. We find our mods, not only well accepted, but very durable and effective.

The other issue on highly modified engines; we find the rods become a weak point above 175hp. I find the most common rod broken to be the #3, due to heat/ oiling issues. We have a correction for that issue, for lesser modified engines, which we also find true for the FSI and TSI engines.

We decided that we could not trust the H-beam rods marketed generally or they became outrageously expensive, so we designed our own rods for the 52.6mm (1.9L) and the 53.7mm (2.0L) engines. One of the enhancements are the 3/8" ARP 2000 asymmetric bolts, instead of the 5/16" standard ARP's most used. In this case, we do think 'bigger is better'. And the asymmetric bolt are a class to their own. Once understood, they are well received.
 

Franko6

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Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Maxmoo,

The ATD engine has valve projection; not valve recession as in the BEW. I did find that there is a VW European version with flat-topped pistons; The BKP. But it's a centered combustion chamber and 16v twin overhead cams.

As far as I know, the only way to fit the BEW cylinder with the ATD head is to replace pistons, cut valve pockets in the pistons or cut seats and change valves.
 
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maxmoo

Veteran Member
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Jan 19, 2011
Location
Lakefield, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2000 golf, 2001 golf, 2000 beetle, 2003 wagon, 2004 golf, 2004 jetta, all diesels
Maxmoo,

The ATD engine has valve projection; not valve recession as in the BEW. I did find that there is a VW European version with flat-topped pistons; The BKP. But it's a centered combustion chamber and 16v twin overhead cams.

As far as I know, the only way to fit the BEW cylinder with the ATD head is to replace pistons, cut valve pockets in the pistons or cut seats and change valves.

Thank you for your reply.....I guess I'll leave the the atp engines complete for a later swap project.
 

JJJ777

Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Location
France
TDI
A4 b5 TDI 115 AJM
First of all, Mery Christmas at all, Joyeux Noel in french!


Thank you franko6 for your very complete answer. I didn't know this BEW with flat topped-pistons, like the existence of a cylinder head with deeper valve seats.



But in my case, my project to use AWX engine block/cylinder head with all accessories of AJM 115 (PD, turbo, ECU, etc..) is possible ?


More, I understand the injector lobe mechanical pilot pop have 2 variations, and I have this 2 variations on my engines:




So is there important differences if I use one or the other of these 2 variations with 115 injectors and 130 cylinder head? I heard the N°1 have better distribution of effort



Thanks a lot!
 
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Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I believe the two alternatives you show for injectors are basically the same, except the pin in either is removable, which would probably make them interchangeable. There is definitely a spring clip in the top version, which easily pops out. The other, I am not familiar with, as it is not a version in the U.S. models.

As I said before, the nozzle sizes overlap very often, although I do not think I would mix a 115 injector with the 130's. As for which offers 'better distribution', that is only by installing and checking performance.

Best of luck!
 

JJJ777

Member
Joined
Dec 9, 2018
Location
France
TDI
A4 b5 TDI 115 AJM
Hello everyone and Happy New Year,

After a week of vacation working on the car, the engine runs very well! As expected, I installed all accessories of tdi 115 on AWX tdi 130 engine block. I traveled 650 miles and no problem!

Thanks to those who helped me!
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Joined
Nov 19, 2003
Location
Richmond, BC, Canada
TDI
Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
Maxmoo,

The ATD engine has valve projection; not valve recession as in the BEW. I did find that there is a VW European version with flat-topped pistons; The BKP. But it's a centered combustion chamber and 16v twin overhead cams.

As far as I know, the only way to fit the BEW cylinder with the ATD head is to replace pistons, cut valve pockets in the pistons or cut seats and change valves.
Or just bolt it on and the valves will make the necessary pockets in the pistons themselves. ;)
 
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