Clean Diesel DPF Data Collection Thread

Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 Golf TDI
MemberName: roninwarior007
Model Year: 2010
Model: golf
Tranny: 6m
Miles: 71664
Oil Ash Volume: 69
Oil Type: Mobile 1 ESP 5W-30
Avrg. MPG:41.3
 
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MacBuckeye

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Nov 11, 2008
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North Carolina
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2009 Jetta
If the max capacity of our DPF is 380 ml, looks like ronin and myself have used up about 18-20% of the DPF. Still a long way to go before it needs replaced. It appears the build-up rate is still about 10 ml per 10K miles. I wonder if fuel efficiency drops as the DPF begins to fill up with soot?
 

TDiSkater

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If the max capacity of our DPF is 380 ml, looks like ronin and myself have used up about 18-20% of the DPF. Still a long way to go before it needs replaced. It appears the build-up rate is still about 10 ml per 10K miles. I wonder if fuel efficiency drops as the DPF begins to fill up with soot?
I thought ash capacity was still an unknown? Was a source identified?
 

MacBuckeye

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The terms "ash" and "soot" are used interchangeably sometimes. I think the 'soot load" refers to the material build-up before the DPF. 'Ash volume' is what remains after the soot is burned off. I'm not an expert on this by any means. Soot load fluctuates up and down. Oil ash volume only increases. Per VW and VAGCOM, the DPF needs replaced when the volume = 45 grams (380 ml).
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
The 380 mL number comes up in VCDS when reading the ash volume parameter as a range of the value of the parameter. The question is what is the significance of the 380 mL in VCDS. Is it the capacity of the DPF or not? I have not seen any explanation as to what the 380 mL means. About all we can do is to continue to provide data as our miles accumulate on our cars. Once we start having to replace our DPFs, we might be able to make some estimates on DPF life based on rate of ash accumulation.

The 45 grams is the maximum soot load before regeneration is not possible. If one assumes that the density of soot is about 0.6 g/mL, 45 grams would take up about 75 mL (45/0.6) of space in the DPF. Also, the density of ash (I've seen values around 2.3 g/mL) is considerably more than soot and thus 45 grams of ash would take up a lot less space in the DPF than 45 grams of soot.
 

MacBuckeye

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Golfer-
(from one of my previous post)
I'm not sure if the info from VW (45 grams of soot load) is the same as oil ash volume. The soot burns off during regens. Not sure if all of the soot burns off or if a percentage remains. I've watched the soot load measurements increase and then drop back towards zero after a regen. If the measurements are correct, then all the soot is burned, thus a reading of 0.0 after the regen is complete. The lowest soot load measured during my scans was 1.5. Even after a regen it didn't go to 0.0. Soot load calculated does go to 0.0 after a regen. I'm wondering if the "45 grams" VW is referring to is not oil ash volume, but the soot load. If the soot load (either measured or calculated) reaches 45 gr, then an emergency regen is no longer safe. But, as long as the car is able to regen on a regular basis, the soot load would never get this high. The highest my soot load (measured) ever reached was 16.2 gr.
I didn't do a conversion so I don't know if 45 gr = 380 ml. I could have mis-spoke on that. 380 ml comes from VAGCOM right? I feel that SOOT LOAD is more critical (dangerous, concerning, etc.) than OIL ASH volume. There's really nothing we can do about oil ash volume as it is going to increase no matter what. Driving style certainly impacts soot load. If all a person does is make really short trips, lots of city driving, than the car really has to work extra hard to burn off the soot. And if the car can't burn off the soot, that's when soot load reaches the 45 gr and.... capoot! There goes the DPF.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

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See if this makes sense.

Ash is not soot. Soot burns, ash does not.

Engine oil and diesel fuel contain ash which does not combust. Low ash engine oil is about 0.6% ash and IIRC diesel fuel spec for ash is about 0.01% (10 ppm). So, the ash inherent in engine oil and the diesel fuel that enter the combustion chamber will accumulate in the DPF along with soot due to incomplete combustion of the engine oil and diesel fuel.

Soot - agglomerations of particles of carbon impregnated with "tar," formed in the incomplete combustion of carbonaceous material. [ASTM D1356 REV A-73]

Ash is the name given to all non-aqueous residue that remains after a sample is burned, and consist mostly of metal oxides.
Soot load is not an issue until it reaches 45 grams. This is not volume related. The various types of regeneration should keep the soot to near the single digit gram level or even zero under normal circumstances. Soot levels can reach 45 grams even tough the DPF is not filled with ash because for some reason soot is accumulating faster than it can be burned via regeneration. Even if all the soot is burned after every active / distance regeneration, ash continues to accumulate as we drive our cars and burn engine oil and diesel fuel. Eventually, there will be too much ash in the DPF and it needs to be cleaned of ash or replaced if cleaning is not possible.
 
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jbright

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I just did quick internet search and it looks as if there are many companies that can clean ash from truck DPFs. Is the DPF on our cars so different that it couldn't be cleaned rather than replaced?
 

JSWTDI09

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I just did quick internet search and it looks as if there are many companies that can clean ash from truck DPFs. Is the DPF on our cars so different that it couldn't be cleaned rather than replaced?
Truck DPFs are designed to be emptied. They have a removable "cap" that allows the ash to be removed. Our DPFs are sealed. My hope is that someone will figure out a way to cut a hole, empty the ash, and then install a cap (or weld it back together) so that cleaning is possible. So far there are not enough VW DPFs with enough miles on them for there to be much of a demand for this service, but that will change in a few years. We shall see what happens. Even if someone comes up with a way to clean out our DPFs, I suspect that there will still be a hefty labor charge, because these things are not very easy to remove (things are pretty tight in there).

Have Fun!

Don
 

darrelld

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2014 Tesla Model S85, 2017 Chevy Bolt
Model Year: 2012
Model: Passat
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 2.6k
Oil Ash Volume: 0ml
Oil Type: Castrol LL03
Avg. MPG:40

 

tdi90hp

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Canuckland
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2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
Does anyone know what kind of DPFs European diesel cars use and how they deal with ash loads and DPF maintenance? I did another quick search and found this:

http://www.centralgaragesnaith.co.uk/?page_id=43

are their DPFs different from ours/ doubtfull....the solution to this WILL come from Europe for sure.....they have so many millions of new diesels on the road and hopefully these liquids and additives in the web site quoted above will work ! there will have to be much more valaidation from European and eventually NA higher mileage drivers that these products do the job before we all jump on though...seems promising but do they WORK ?
 

sickmtbnutcase

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2009 Jetta TDI DSG
Another data point for the thread. I'll post more as I get through each maintenance from now on.

MemberName: sickmtbnutcase
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 50414
Oil Ash Volume: 39ml
Oil Type: Castrol LL03
Avrg. MPG: 44'ish
Comments: Looks like my ash buildup has been a bit less than others have so far. Most driving is country highways by my wife getting to work and back.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The DPF is full of precious expensive metals. I would guess that it is worth more than the $200 core fee but then you would have to clean it and recover the metals yourself. Not only a messy business but you could need some rather hazardeous chemicals to break the bonds of the precious metals to the fins within the DPF. Probably a "good" thing that VW did not make these easier to get to or they might start disappearing like some catalytic converters have been.
 

JSWTDI09

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2009 JSW TDI (gone but not forgotten)
Update (another data point). I was playing with VCDS again today.

MemberName: JSWTDI09
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta Sportwagen
Tranny: 6M
Miles: 40,872
Oil Ash Volume: 39
Oil Type: Mobile 1 ESP
Avrg. MPG: 38
Comments: none new

Have Fun!

Don


 

MacBuckeye

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2009 Jetta
Another data point for the thread. I'll post more as I get through each maintenance from now on.

MemberName: sickmtbnutcase
Model Year: 2009
Model: Jetta
Tranny: DSG
Miles: 50414
Oil Ash Volume: 39ml
Oil Type: Castrol LL03
Avrg. MPG: 44'ish
Comments: Looks like my ash buildup has been a bit less than others have so far. Most driving is country highways by my wife getting to work and back.
Using any fuel additives?
 

MacBuckeye

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2009 Jetta
DPF regen / VAGCOM setting

I was re-reading the literature from VW's Engine Management System (link on post#26) and I'm wondering if the values can be changed as to when the car does an Active Regen. According to the document, "the soot load of the particulate filter is calculated by two pre-programmed load models in the ECM. One of the load values is determined from the driving profile of the user and the signals from the exhaust gas temp sensor and heated O2 sensor."
So... would it be possible to change those settings in VAGCOM? If you read the document closely, it doesn't quite make sense. "two pre-programmed load models" ??? But one of those is determined by driver profile. Isn't the driver profile a variable, not a pre-programmed value?? Certainly my "driver profile" is going to be different than someone elses.
Thoughts?
 

DanG144

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Chapin, South Carolina, USA
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2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
The program probably looks at how you drive and may change the frequency of the regens depending upon that.

If you are dragging an 8x10 trailer at 90 mph, I doubt if you need many regens.

This program would not be changeable by VCDS.
 

kjclow

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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The engine, tranny, and emmisions are all supposed to adapt to your driving style. If you like jack rabbit starts and squeelling stops, the computer should remember that to give you the best performance for that style. If you like to drive like your in a prius, again, the computer should remember that and adapt. I doubt if any of these memory modules (for lack of anything else to call them) would be accessible to us for tweeking.
 

quadrun1

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Fairfield County, CT
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past: 2013 Passat TDI SE 6M, 2010 Jetta TDI DSG
Some data from my car...

2010 Jetta TDI Sedan DSG
Mileage: 29,100 miles
Oil: Castrol LL03
Fuel Economy: 38.9 mpg
Daily commute=100 miles round-trip, mostly highway, in passive regen rpm range, well above 2,000 rpm :)

22:19:37 Group 241: DPF Soot load
30 ml Particle Filter Oil Ash Volume
16.5 Soot Load(g) Calculated
7.5 Soot Load(g) Measured


22:19:37 Group 105: Diesel Particle Filter
00000001 Bin. Bits
4.0 Requested Regenerations
144.0°C Temperature
30.6 (no units)

22:19:37 Group 240: Last Regen

28.9 l Fuel Consumption Since last Regen
490 km Mileage Since last Regen
504.0 Time elapsed since Regeneration
 
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tdi90hp

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Feb 5, 2002
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Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
Some data from my car...

2010 Jetta TDI Sedan DSG
Mileage: 29,100 miles
Oil: Castrol LL03
Fuel Economy: 38.9 mpg
Daily commute=100 miles round-trip, mostly highway, in passive regen rpm range, well above 2,000 rpm :)

22:19:37 Group 241: DPF Soot load
30 ml Particle Filter Oil Ash Volume
16.5 Soot Load(g) Calculated
7.5 Soot Load(g) Measured


22:19:37 Group 105: Diesel Particle Filter
00000001 Bin. Bits
4.0 Requested Regenerations
144.0°C Temperature
30.6 (no units)

22:19:37 Group 240: Last Regen

28.9 l Fuel Consumption Since last Regen
490 km Mileage Since last Regen
504.0 Time elapsed since Regeneration
consistent data keeps coming in on ash volumes....does anybody on this site...gurus and techs chime in...know when the DPF is "full" of ash and throws a code and wants to be replaced??
 

MacBuckeye

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Location
North Carolina
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2009 Jetta
tdi90hp-

Based on the service/maintenance bulletin from VW, it looks like we can get anywhere from 250K-350K miles before the DPF is clogged. Those figures came from calculating the oil ash build-up we are seeing and the value given by VW stating the DPF can no longer "safely" go thru a regen.

I believe there are a couple members driving 2009 TDI's with over 100K miles. It would be nice to get their DPF data to see if the oil ash build up in their car is consistent with what we've seen thus far. The more data we can collect the better we can "guesstimate" how long we have before spending money on a new DPF. My DPF light has NEVER come on and I'm at 71K miles. My car regens quite frequently- 1-2 times per week if I had to guess. Those are active regens. I'm not sure you can hear the passive regens which I think occur more often and go unnoticed.
 

DanG144

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Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Location
Chapin, South Carolina, USA
TDI
2005 A4 Jetta 5spd
2010 Jetta Sportwagen
118k miles
Just did the timing belt.

08:32:44 Group 101: Diesel Particle Filter
0 /min Engine Speed (G28)
0.0 Emerg. Regenerat. current Duration
0.0 Emerg. Regenerat. Time since Start
0.0 Successful Regenerations
08:32:44 Group 105: Diesel Particle Filter
00000000 Bin. Bits
2.0 Requested Regenerations
6.0°C Temperature
0.0 (no units)
08:32:44 Group 106: Diesel Particle Filter
Fuel Consumption since Regeneration
Driven Distance since Regeneration
Time elapsed since Regeneration
08:27:53 Group 108: Diesel Particle Filter
120 ml Particle Filter Oil Ash Volume
Particle Filter Carbon Mass (spec.)
Particle Filter Carbon Mass (act.)
08:27:53 Group 240: Last Regen
9.2 l Fuel Consumption Since last Regen
170 km Mileage Since last Regen
180.0 Time elapsed since Regeneration
08:28:29 Group 241: DPF Soot load
120 ml Particle Filter Oil Ash Volume
6.0 Soot Load(g) Calculated
0.0 Soot Load(g) Measured
 

King Crimson

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Chicago western suburbs
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI
tdi90hp-

Based on the service/maintenance bulletin from VW, it looks like we can get anywhere from 250K-350K miles before the DPF is clogged. Those figures came from calculating the oil ash build-up we are seeing and the value given by VW stating the DPF can no longer "safely" go thru a regen.

250k-350k? Seems like very wishful thinking. I thought this thing was rated for 140k. Are you taking into account possible accelerated degradation of the DPF as it ages?

For the record, my DPF failed at 17K miles and VW can't tell me why, they're claiming it was simply defective. They also indicate it's warrantied for 80k miles as part of the emissions system warranty. I drive an average of 40-50 mph on an average of 40 minute periods.
 
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