TDI Transporter 68bhp now 200+ I hope !!!

ryanp

Vendor
Joined
Jun 22, 2008
Location
Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK
TDI
Arosa CR - 550hp - 9.7 @ 150mph 1/4 Mile, Citigo 4x4 CR TDi - 340hp, Caddy 2.0 CR 4x4 TDI - 300+hp, Golf Mk2 Van 1.9 TDI - was 290hp, Mk5 Ibiza 2.0 FR TDi - 270hp, BMW 135d - 360hp, BMW 330d - 335hp, BMW 335d - 380hp + a few more ........
longer glow period will sort that!
 

kooyajerms

grocery getter
Joined
May 5, 2004
Location
Pomona, Southern California
TDI
97 B4V (mine), 11 x5 35d (hers) 04 V10 (that one you want), 2014 Q7 (mom's) 74 Shasta 1400
What is your timing set at in channel 04 at idle? I noticed that it sitting more retarded caused smokier cold starts.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
I am going to check everything again today, i lent my laptop to another workshop over the weekend so when i get it back i am going to run some tests.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Quick update, checked the timing again and it is bang on the green line so not really any room for more mechanical adjustment, I swapped in my 240's to see if that would change anything but didn't really help. I have added a manual overide for the GP's and that has helped but the air temp has gone up by 10-12 degrees so it is difficult to get a proper comparison. I spoke to Mark Malone and he thinks he my be able to work his magic in the software and improve the situation but if not there is only one thing for it, Move to a hotter country :)
 
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resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Timing issues

I am having am issue with excessive noise in light throttle conditions under light throttle the diesel knock sound horrible, looking at the logs the pump is producing much more than requested advance, i am having to run near the green line in VCDS but it is ok on idle just light throttle. Here is a log i took this morning.
Any ideas gratefully recieved.
Saturday 25 February 2012
028 906 021 GL 1.9l R4 EDC G00SG 1446

Group A: '004
RPM Ign. Timing Ign. Timing
TIME
Marker STAMP /min °BTDC °BTDC %
0.01 1932 2.9 7.3 2.8
0.36 2121 3.5 7 2.8
0.72 2247 1.8 7 2.8
1.08 1806 1.3 0 17.1
1.44 1197 0.9 11.4 2.8
1.8 1344 2.6 9.2 2.8
2.16 1491 2.6 6.6 2.8
2.52 1575 1.3 6.4 2.8
2.88 1533 1.1 7.3 2.8
3.24 1554 1.1 7.9 2.8
3.6 1512 1.5 9 2.8
3.95 1533 1.8 8.1 2.8
4.31 1575 1.8 7.5 2.8
4.67 1575 1.8 7.5 2.8
5.03 1659 2.2 7.3 2.8
5.39 1659 2.9 7.5 2.8
5.75 1764 3.3 7 2.8
6.11 1869 3.5 6.4 2.8
6.47 1974 3.5 6.4 2.8
6.83 2100 3.7 6.4 2.8
7.19 2205 3.7 6.6 2.8
7.55 2310 4.4 6.4 2.8
7.91 2415 4.8 5.5 2.8
8.27 2604 5.5 5.1 2.8
8.63 2751 5.7 4.8 2.8
8.99 2919 6.2 4.8 10.4
9.35 2961 2.2 5.7 2.8
9.71 2478 2 0 17.5
10.06 2037 4.4 10.3 2.8
10.42 2016 7.5 7.7 2.8
10.78 2079 7.5 5.9 24.3
11.14 2205 7.7 6.6 27.9
11.5 2310 7.5 7.3 24.3
11.86 2415 7 6.6 24.3
12.22 2499 4.8 5.5 3.2
12.58 2562 5.1 5.3 4
12.94 2604 5.3 5.1 6.8
13.3 2688 5.5 5.1 9.6
13.66 2730 8.4 6.4 40.6
14.02 2814 9.7 10.3 39
14.38 2940 9.5 11 34.3
19.41 1827 2.6 9.7 2.8
19.77 1806 3.3 7.9 2.8
20.13 1827 2.9 6.2 2.8
20.49 1848 2.9 6.6 2.8
20.84 1848 2.9 7 2.8
21.2 1827 2 7.5 2.8
21.56 1806 1.5 7.7 2.8
21.92 1806 1.3 0 22.3
22.28 1785 1.3 0 22.3
22.64 1743 1.3 0 22.3
23 1743 3.3 10.3 2.8
23.36 1764 3.3 8.1 2.8
23.72 1743 3.3 6.6 2.8
24.08 1764 3.3 6.4 2.8
24.44 1785 3.3 6.4 2.8
24.8 1785 3.5 6.4 2.8
25.16 1806 3.5 6.4 2.8
25.51 1827 3.5 6.4 2.8
25.87 1848 3.5 6.2 2.8
26.23 1848 3.3 6.6 2.8
26.59 1869 3.3 6.8 2.8
26.95 1869 3.3 7.3 2.8
27.31 1890 3.3 7 2.8
27.67 1890 3.1 7.3 2.8
28.03 1890 3.1 7.3 2.8
28.39 1911 3.3 7.5 2.8
28.75 1890 3.1 7.3 2.8
29.11 1890 3.3 7.3 2.8
29.47 1932 3.3 7.3 2.8
29.83 1911 3.5 7 2.8
30.19 1911 3.3 7 2.8
30.55 1911 3.3 7 2.8
30.91 1932 3.5 7 2.8
31.27 1932 3.7 6.8 2.8
31.62 1953 3.7 6.6 2.8
31.98 1932 3.5 6.4 2.8
32.34 1974 3.3 6.8 2.8
32.7 1974 3.3 7 2.8
33.06 1995 3.3 7.5 2.8
33.42 1995 3.7 7 2.8
33.78 2016 3.7 6.8 2.8
34.14 2037 3.7 6.8 2.8
34.5 2016 3.3 6.8 2.8
34.86 2037 3.1 7.3 2.8
35.22 2037 2 7.3 2.8
35.58 2016 2 7.7 2.8
35.94 2016 2 7.9 2.8
36.3 1995 1.8 8.1 2.8
36.65 1995 2 8.1 2.8
37.01 1953 1.8 7.9 2.8
37.37 1953 1.8 7.9 2.8
37.73 1932 1.8 8.1 2.8
38.09 1932 3.3 7.9 2.8
38.45 1953 3.7 7.5 2.8
38.81 1974 4 6.4 2.8
39.17 1974 4 5.9 2.8
39.53 1995 3.7 5.9 2.8
39.89 2037 3.5 6.2 2.8
40.25 2016 1.5 5.9 21.9
44.56 1848 4 8.8 2.8
44.92 1890 4.6 6.4 2.8
45.28 1953 4.2 5.1 13.9
45.64 1974 4.2 5.5 2.8
46 2016 4 5.5 2.8
46.36 2037 3.7 6.2 2.8
46.72 2058 3.7 6.4 2.8
47.08 2079 2.6 6.6 2.8
53.54 1071 0.9 0 27.9
53.9 840 1.3 9 2.8
54.26 882 1.3 3.3 2.8
54.62 882 1.3 2 21.5
54.98 861 1.3 2 19.1
55.34 861 1.3 2 18.3
55.7 861 1.3 2 18.3
60.73 861 1.3 1.8 8
61.09 861 1.3 2 6.8
61.45 861 1.3 2 5.2
61.81 861 1.3 2 4.4
62.17 861 1.3 1.8 4.4
62.53 861 1.3 1.8 3.2
62.89 861 1.3 1.8 2.8
63.25 861 1.3 1.8 2.8
63.61 861 1.3 1.8 2.8
63.97 861 1.3 1.8 2.8
 

dantro

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Location
South UK
TDI
transporter 88
I get the same noises from ine and have been playing with timing and IQ myself although your numbers are a lot higher than mine.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
I am not sure if is a pump issue or something that is characteristic of the big injectors due to the higher break pressures. I have the R520's coming back from DBW so i will drop them in and see what happens.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
It is better at higher rpms but the logs say it all sometimes the actual can be 6 degrees higher than the specified with no ECU advance !!!
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
Weird... your actual is exceeding specified by a fair margin yet your duty cycle is pretty much flatlined. There's a couple spots where you do meet specified (roughly) but are only generating around 40% max duty cycle. I'd at least try setting your static timing more towards the blue line (center) and re-log things. Not being able to retard enough to meet specified is usually a sign of over-advanced static timing but also should generate high duty cycles in an effort correct.

Absolutely beautiful build, BTW...
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Weird... your actual is exceeding specified by a fair margin yet your duty cycle is pretty much flatlined. There's a couple spots where you do meet specified (roughly) but are only generating around 40% max duty cycle. I'd at least try setting your static timing more towards the blue line (center) and re-log things. Not being able to retard enough to meet specified is usually a sign of over-advanced static timing but also should generate high duty cycles in an effort correct.

Absolutely beautiful build, BTW...
Thanks the appreciation makes the headaches easier to bear !

The major problem i have is the cold starting issue, if the cold starts were better i would pull the timing back to the blue line as it sounded much nicer there. I need to log the timing from stone cold first thing and see how much duty cycle i see. I am not sure how well the ecu advance system works before the engine fires and if specifying more advance for cold starts in the ECU will help if i drop the static timing back.
This is my first low CR build so i was always prepared for a fair amount of tweeking ;)
 

FlyTDI Guy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Location
PNW
TDI
'01 Jetta GLS
That's kind of the 'Catch-22' of the situation. Until started, the ECU is out of the formula and you are using the static timing value. Once up and running, the ECU can now specify and adjust (within its ability) the timing. Added to that, during warm-up, the ECU is going to specify more advanced settings anyways. The combination of both makes for a very rattly and disconcerting experience. Ideally, you should be able to advance your static timing enough to get clean starts but also stay within the adjustment range the ECU can handle. When you are over-advanced, I'm not seeing high duty cycles indicating the ECU is 'working' hard to retard your timing. There's a great thread about timing that I see you have already added a post to. If you have the time and patience, there are some interesting theories there worth looking at.

Were it me, I'd back the static down a bit and see if you can get the two to match. Try it after you have a warm engine, that way you can skirt (at least temporarily) the cold start issue. The values the ECU calculates are based on your CPS and #3 lift sensor so having lower compression is going to throw a wrench into the std. algorithms the ECU uses to calculate things. Your final settings may defy common logic because of this. Once you find that point, there are a couple things you can do to see if you can improve cold starts. One is the glow plug cycle. There's also an adaptation you can do in VCDS to "temporarily improve" starts. I don't remember the channel but if you log in and go through the channels, it's not hard to find. I think it just increases fueling when starting but it might be something to play around with. Finally, you might want to contact oldpoopie here on Fred's as he runs low compression, has posted here before about issues with it, and is a bona fide TDI guru. Honestly, I'm "spit-balling" and he may have some more concrete suggestions.
 
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m1ketdi

Veteran Member
Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Leam
TDI
Leon BKD
Have you tried mapping in some more fuel to the starting maps instead of putting a load of static advance on?
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
I haven't treid adding more fuel yet i was waiting for my revised maps but Mark is proving a little hard to get hold of at the moment but i know he is a busy man so i am trying to be patient. I can't bump the IQ as it smokes like a train with my current map but if there is a way of adding extra fuel on start as suggested by FlyTdi then i will give that a try. I pulled my spare pump and have been looking at adding a manual advance mechanism but that will be a whole new mission on it's own.

I have spent a few evenings reading through both the big timing threads but non of them really mention about excessive advance under low load but they are interesting reading never the less.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
bump for more pawwwar!
Well Jeremy, after discovering the cause of my water loss was a pourus head casting :mad: i got the new reworked head back on Saturday after a long fight to get the thing back from various engineering shops it is back on !!

Power feels great but i haven't had chance to put many miles on it, there is a race meet this weekend 50 miles from Me so the plan is to take it the long way round and put some miles on before i drive it from one end of France to the other in 2 weeks. I might take the laptop and run some logs on the way back this weekend !!
 

JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
Not fun at all. Where was it leaking through to? I am very interested in seeing how the VL responds at low RPM. I'm putting one on my Passat soon!
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
I think the turbo is fine response wise but the overlap on my cam sacrifices EMP at low RPM because when i stripped the head the passive EGR effect made my inlet ports as sooty as the exhaust side. It takes a good amount of throttle to pull away from a standstill, slipping the clutch a little helps but that is only in 1st gear. If i was going it all over i would use a less aggressive cam profile for sure. The test will be when my Wife gets behind the wheel (she is a little less mechanically sympathetic)
;-)
 

TDIMeister

Phd of TDIClub Enthusiast, Moderator at Large
Joined
May 1, 1999
Location
Canada
TDI
TDI
As the one who determined the camshaft specs, I can say there is no overlap at 1 mm and it would in any case have no direct bearing on EMP. I can't see how the camshaft would contribute to "passive EGR" or your intake sooting issue, but if you'd write me an email I'll be happy to work with you to find a solution and to ensure your full delight with the cam.
 
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resto1975

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Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Well yesterday went well, went to a track day with a couple of friends I was in the van and the others 2 cars were a 911 GT3 and a Lotus Exige, when we arrived at the track the first comment was "F&#k me I had to change down 2 gears to keep up at one point, that Van is mad" Nice that my overweight Camper can catch a couple of true Prestige racers on the hop !!!
No track time for me but they had fun killing their tyres.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Sorry for the massive gap in posting, summer is always to busy in the workshop for me to do anything to my own stuff.
Dyno day today !!!
I am running a reduced fueling tune that Mark did for me on request as the smoke from my full fuel tune was drawing the wrong sort of attention !!
Results were as follows:
http://youtu.be/MbVswVmTIPM
194 Whp@3989rpm 344lbft torque@2755rpm


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 

Alcaid

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Norway
TDI
See signature
I see you are running 32psi of boost, have you got any numbers for back pressure or EGT?
 

resto1975

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Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Emp is 1:1 after spool and EGT is about 400-500 degrees c at a steady 80mph cruise and cant remember seeing more than 800, when i get my tacho hooked up i will post some video of the gauges.
 

resto1975

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
That pull was in 4th gear, under normal driving conditions the spool is pretty good. From 2000rpm the logs show actual and requested pretty close.
 

Alcaid

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Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Norway
TDI
See signature
Should be some room in the mapping to let the boost come in earlier without surge when running a VL?
 

resto1975

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Joined
Feb 3, 2010
Location
Sussex UK
TDI
T4 1.9tdi
Mark has been very helpful with my map revisions, we are getting very close to being spot on, my lack of time to do some sensible logging and video doesn't make things flow well but as winter is here hopefully i can get some more time to work out the wrinkles.
 

Alcaid

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Norway
TDI
See signature
194 Whp@3989rpm 344lbft torque@2755rpm
Have a look at this quote from Fab176's previous project with the same turbo:



We experienced that KPower results are about +-5 bhp off "real" dyno results. So taking a not-so-optimistic view at it, the result is around 250 bhp and 530 Nm.
I know it's just a software "dyno" but it shows he got up to full boost at 2400-2500RPM vs. your 2750RPM. See how much max torque is increased (530Nm=391lbft vs. your 345lbft) and how much wider the torque range is (at 2000rpm you have 160lbft while his car had 340lbft!)

But then again, he broke a piston :p
 
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