Harmonic Balancer Bolt stripper -- seeking advice

Harmonic Balancer Bolt stripped -- what to do now?

Hi everyone,

I'm doing the timing belt job for the first time and everything was going well until I got to the harmonic balancer bolts. Even using a brand new 6 mm hex bit from Home Depot, I managed to strip the first two bolts I tried.

I have an automatic, so I had to use the 19 mm crank bolt as counter hold while using the 6 mm hex to try to remove the bolt. (is there a better way?)

I sprayed some PB blaster about an hour before I tried to remove them the first time. So I sprayed some more and will let them soak for a couple of hours more before trying again. I went to Home Depot and bought a bolt extractor from dewalt (link). They go around the outside of the bolt and it spirals so the more you turn, the deeper it bites into the bolt.

Is this the best way to remove these bolts? Do you know of another, easier method?

Finally, should i use an impact driver to extract the bolts? As shown in this video? Or should I do it by hand with a breaker bar?

Thanks!

Alex

I have used a triple squares on stripped hex bolts. Find the one that is barely to big to fit in stripped bolt, use a small hammer to knock it in, then unthread. I haven’t found one yet it wouldn’t remove

Use the ball end of a hammer and hit the Allen head bolt face so your socket will grab again, it will also loosen the bolt abit. I've had good luck with the impact drivers you strike with a hammer. When you get them out, throw them right in the trash can and install real bolts with a hex head.

https://goo.gl/images/B2WZbu

Why are you buying garbage bolts from Home Depot?

Ol'Rattler said:

Why are you buying garbage bolts from Home Depot?

Click to expand...

I'm not buying bolts from home depot. I'm trying to remove the VW harmonic balancer bolts with a HD Husky hex bit. That stripped out the harmonic balancer bolt. So I bought a bolt remover made by Dewalt from HD.


I bought 4 new VW harmonic balancer bolts because I've read they're easy to strip. So I was prepared to replace the old bolts with brand new ones. I just need to find a way to remove the old ones now.

I prefer the ones that go inside but use whatever it takes to get them out. I've found that an impact driver works great getting them out without stripping them. A triple square does great too if you have a good assortment or the right size.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

So I tried the 12 mm 12-point socket and the bolt came off like a charm.

But now the bolt is stuck inside the socket. How the heck do I get it out of the socket? I tried using a vice grip on the socket and a screw driver in he middle of the socket to knock it out, but the socket always slips off the vice grip.

Find a punch that fits inside the back end of the socket and hold the socket in your hand and hammer the end of the punch against a vice, work bench, floor etc. If you have a vice, set it up so the stuck bolt is facing down and the vice is open just enough to support the socket. Use the punch to hammer the bolt out. If you don't have any punches, one of the other old bolts will likely fit through the socket and you can carefully use that.


You can also thread the bolt back in by hand all the way (but not tight) and then put a 12" extension on the socket. Rock the extension back and forth and it should come off the bolt.

I use an air chisel on those bolts and replace them. You can hit the bolt at a tangent with the air chisel and it will spin loose immediately. Alternatively, you can often hammer a 12pt socket OVER the head and break it loose too.

This has always worked on my VT TDI engines, and I am guessing our corrosion is unimaginably bad compared to what your car in LA is dealing with.

You tube

heat the socket

alex_tdi said:

So I tried the 12 mm 12-point socket and the bolt came off like a charm.

But now the bolt is stuck inside the socket. How the heck do I get it out of the socket? I tried using a vice grip on the socket and a screw driver in he middle of the socket to knock it out, but the socket always slips off the vice grip.

Click to expand...

A vice.. and a hammer.

alex_tdi said:

Hi everyone,
I'm doing the timing belt job for the first time and everything was going http://innovativewiring.com/?page_id=161well until I got to the harmonic balancer bolts. Even using a brand new 6 mm hex bit from Home Depot, I managed to strip the first two bolts I tried.
If someone overtorqued the bolts, which is VERY common, then they will tend to stay stuck, even if not exposed to the harsh northern winter salt slop. The bolts are a softer metal and easily deform especially if you don't have the tool centered perfectly.

I have an automatic, so I had to use the 19 mm crank bolt as counter hold while using the 6 mm hex to try to remove the bolt. (is there a better way?) That's what you have to do. I place a long enough extension on the 19mm setup so the rachet locks in on the brake caliper or similar. That let's me concentrate on the bolt extraction.

I sprayed some PB blaster about an hour before I tried to remove them the first time. So I sprayed some more and will let them soak for a couple of hours more before trying again. I went to Home Depot and bought a bolt extractor from dewalt (link). They go around the outside of the bolt and it spirals so the more you turn, the deeper it bites into the bolt.
Is this the best way to remove these bolts? Do you know of another, easier method?
Yes, this is a good method. I happen to have the Irwin brand of extractors. Pound on with hammer and loosen with tool.

Finally, should i use an impact driver to extract the bolts? As shown in this video? Or should I do it by hand with a breaker bar?
I recently purchased an battery operated impact gun. Works way better than manually twisting on them, but either way will work.

Thanks!
Alex

Click to expand...

My comments in red.

I always give the heads of those bolts a couple of solid whacks with a hammer. Then I make sure the hex is cleaned out and I tap the hex socket into the hole so it is fully seated.

I started this method after stripping out two of the four bolts on my first timing belt job. So far (cross fingers ) I haven’t stripped another head.....yet.

If you really mess them up, I have drilled the top of the bolt off and when you remove the balancer they come right off with some vice grips.

1/4" is 6.3mm
or iirc T45 hammers in there too
chisel will always turn them or you can chip the head off and the shank'll come out with a pliers once it's got the tension off

they're normal M8 10.9s, get some better 12.9s at fastenal for a couple bucks, sorry I don't know the length offhand

alex_tdi said:

So I tried the 12 mm 12-point socket and the bolt came off like a charm.

But now the bolt is stuck inside the socket. How the heck do I get it out of the socket? I tried using a vice grip on the socket and a screw driver in he middle of the socket to knock it out, but the socket always slips off the vice grip.

Click to expand...

ah, whoops didn't read the thread
put the socket down flat on something solid, strike the side of the socket flat down into the hard surface. From the strike the socket will spring a little bit and the bolt or nut inside will compress where the tool steel socket will spring back. Bolt comes loose.

Thanks everyone for all your suggestions.


I managed to get the bolts out by hammering the socket on the ground on all sides, and then using a vice grip to grab the socket (really tight), place a screw driver through the hole in the socket and then hammering the screw driver to drive the bolt out of the socket.



+1 for the awesome tdiclub community


p.s. I'm on the final stages of the timing belt change. Just completed turning over the engine manually twice, TDC is good and the cam locking plate inserts nicely. Just have to bump the engine a few times to check belt alignment and will be ready to fire it up tomorrow.

So here's what I did with the last ones I stripped. I have an air chisel. I installed a punch point and set it in the hole of the bolt and hammered on it for say 20 - 30 seconds. By then a small Vice Grip was able to easily remove the bolt.

Who came up with this design anyways? I was wondering about just using a regular bolt instead as has been mentioned. On my cars I'm going to install some exhaust manifold studs salvaged from an old head and just use a nut on them. I'll probably use a nylock style nut and call it good.

GEFP said:

So here's what I did with the last ones I stripped. I have an air chisel. I installed a punch point and set it in the hole of the bolt and hammered on it for say 20 - 30 seconds. By then a small Vice Grip was able to easily remove the bolt.

Who came up with this design anyways? I was wondering about just using a regular bolt instead as has been mentioned. On my cars I'm going to install some exhaust manifold studs salvaged from an old head and just use a nut on them. I'll probably use a nylock style nut and call it good.

Click to expand...

I think the nylok nuts might melt. Usually they (manifold bolts) are those distorted locking nuts, so there is nothing to melt.

GEFP said:

....

Who came up with this design anyways? I was wondering about just using a regular bolt instead as has been mentioned. On my cars I'm going to install some exhaust manifold studs salvaged from an old head and just use a nut on them. I'll probably use a nylock style nut and call it good.

Click to expand...

VW engineers came up with it : ) The torque specification is very high and so I think you need very high clamping force to keep the joint connected. I don't know what the tensile strength is of an exhaust manifold stud but a nylock nut is almost certainly not strong enough. If you do this solution a very likely result is that the harmonic balancer pulley will soon fall off - it has happened and has been mentioned on the forum.

If you want to try, I suggest looking for a class 10 nut and of course use the torque specified. If the studs are not strong enough you should know right away because they would yield or even break before you get there.

That pulley falling off has the potential to be a catastrophic failure. It's quite heavy and on the way out it will probably do a fair bit of damage. If that damage manages to involve the timing belt cover (which is just thin metal) you're completely screwed.

Note that the factory used blue threadlocker on those bolts too. They were serious about them not backing out.

I've not managed to actually strip one of their heads yet despite removing a number of them over the years but I take QUITE a bit of care removing them and make VERY SURE that the torque (wrench, etc) is straight-on, with a well-fitting (read: expensive) allen socket. And I do stick the allen socket in there and give it a good whack with a light hammer first before try to back it out.

mk3 said:

VW engineers came up with it : ) The torque specification is very high and so I think you need very high clamping force to keep the joint connected. I don't know what the tensile strength is of an exhaust manifold stud but a nylock nut is almost certainly not strong enough. If you do this solution a very likely result is that the harmonic balancer pulley will soon fall off - it has happened and has been mentioned on the forum.
If you want to try, I suggest looking for a class 10 nut and of course use the torque specified. If the studs are not strong enough you should know right away because they would yield or even break before you get there.

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The torque on the ALH harmonic pulley is paltry 18ft lbs. It doesn't need to be a class 10 bolt. Another TDI engine is the CJAA motor is something like 7ft lbs + 1/4 turn. Again, a trivial amount.

It's been my experience if they are not over torqued, the will come out like they should. I base this on the timing belt repeat visits I have done where I was the last guy who did the work. Never a problem. Often a problem where I wasn't.

Almost always, a good sharp impact hit with a hammer on any fastener will enormously help. Spray the fastener with weasel piss of your choice and hit it with a hammer ...sharp small blows work real well. With hex sockets, slotted screws and phillips do the same. insert the tool and whack that. Great on aluminum covers and other small fasteners. Works on big stuff too.

Remember, if you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.

mk3 said:

VW engineers came up with it : ) The torque specification is very high and so I think you need very high clamping force to keep the joint connected. I don't know what the tensile strength is of an exhaust manifold stud but a nylock nut is almost certainly not strong enough. If you do this solution a very likely result is that the harmonic balancer pulley will soon fall off - it has happened and has been mentioned on the forum.
If you want to try, I suggest looking for a class 10 nut and of course use the torque specified. If the studs are not strong enough you should know right away because they would yield or even break before you get there.

Click to expand...

jokila said:

The torque on the ALH harmonic pulley is paltry 18ft lbs. It doesn't need to be a class 10 bolt. Another TDI engine is the CJAA motor is something like 7ft lbs + 1/4 turn. Again, a trivial amount.
It's been my experience if they are not over torqued, the will come out like they should. I base this on the timing belt repeat visits I have done where I was the last guy who did the work. Never a problem. Often a problem where I wasn't.

Click to expand...

Thanks, you raise some good points

I looked back at an old thread.. re-remembered that there is a discrepancy/error in the torque specification. My CD ROM Bentley gave a torque + angle and my harmonic balancer bolts are very short. A very short bolt does not have much length to stretch so that additional angle of 1/4 turn results in a *very* tight bolt. Looking back and with your additional information I am thinking this torque spec was for an assembly that used a longer bolt. this i a bit of a fading memory but there might have been a mid-year VIN split on the design.

If the torque specification for the design truly is on 18 ft-lbf then a higher grade bolt isn't strictly necessary. That said, I know that those I removed from my car were 10.9 and if you don't need the bolt to yield (TTY bolt) then a higher grade should be better if only to resist rounding out the drive socket.

for reference

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1432659&postcount=5

Wouldn't a higher strength bolt be made of better steel and less chance of stripping when you try to take it off years later?
Especially if Loctite is used.

I've used the tap it with a hammer and the hammer driver many times over the years.
The Phillips screws holding the rotors on for one.

I just had to deal with this myself. Previous TB job was done by a chain store (previous owner wasn't a DIYer), and the harmonic balancer bolts were REALLY tight. Soaking overnight with PB Blaster didn't help. Heating with a torch didn't help. Impacting the bolt heads with a hammer and punch didn't help. A larger hex key (1/4") stripped out, also.

Then I got a 15/32" 12-point socket, and hammered it onto the bolt head. And I used an impact driver to buzz it out. I couldn't believe how well that worked! The other 3 bolts came out just as easy, using the same method.

I have some new bolts on the way from Metalnerd.

I've been able to get them out using a QUALITY hex SOCKET. 90% of the battle is that you must MAKE CERTAIN you are EXACTLY face-on to the bolt (NO angular load whatsoever.)

The problem is that the LAST guy might have tightened them with an angular load, and if he did it will strip since the damage was done when they were put in. And yeah, the 15/32 socket trick works if that has happened previously and unfortunately you have no control over the last monkey who worked on the car.

The other issue that arises is that there are two lengths depending on which dampener you have.....

Y'all need these... used them for years in tool and die...http://www.sockitout.com/

I prefer Irwin extractors myself. They come in sets from Irwin or under the Craftsman label. I have found that even when the bolts have anti-seize applied, at least 1 will be impossible to loosen. So I use the Irwin extractors to loosen all 4 about 60-90 degrees, then they will unscrew.

Cheers,

PH