BEW rev issue. sluggish past 3000-3200 in high gears advice appreciated

speedy223

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Apr 8, 2015
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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
Have a TDI Golf 5 spd 04. BEW PD.

starts instantly. runs along just fine seemingly till you get on it.
if you drive it slow and pokey you wont even notice, get up to 80 in 5th no problem. if you go to floor it you lose RPMs. the higher the gear the more noticeable it seems.

3rd gear if you accel slowly you can make it up to 3500. 4th 3200 or lower. if you floor it it pretty much loses get up and go at 3000 period no matter the gear after 2nd.

no check engine lights.

i have had them go into limp mode before and am familiar with it. this is not limp mode, no key reset required, just wont behave under heavy load.

i have vag com. i checked boost specified and actual on a few runs spot on.

i checked the MAF on block 3 handily called EGR something and it is spot on. goes up and down as requested. well over 500 into the 800's i believe but again spot on when watched on a graph.

i bought car as is with this condition,got a nice deal. used to ALH's , do have one BEW but it has always behaved itself so i have no troubleshooting experience with it per say and am not a mech by trade.
i would like to learn how to check stuff without just throwing parts at it so any troubleshooting advice is greatly appreciated.

i plan to change fuel filter even though supposedly it was just done by PO.
any other suggestions...

last but not least since fueling seems suspect is there any way to verify this or do you just have to pull lift pump to check screen and change filters 3 or 4 times till you know they are good. i guess i mean is there fuel pressure specs and a way to check a car only symptomatic under load.

thanks in advance for any advice. again, i am trying to up my knowledge of troubleshooting rather than just throw parts at it so if there is something i need to check or verify please let me know.
either way any advice is appreciated even in the throwing parts line if it just helps me narrow down on the problem.

vagcom doesnt seem to have any measures that address fueling under load. if it does i would love to learn how to check it. still a novice user of it.

updated to say that it wont even redline parked in neutral. pegs at about 4k floored.
 
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speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
checked the cam. seems ok but does have one worn lobe so will be changing it but the lifter looks ok all other lobes have decent chamfer but the second farthest one away from the cam gear is worn till chamfer is down and is slightly misshapen to the eye. lifter looks good.

could that be the cause of my problem? i intend to change it but want to get it running reasonably well before i do unless that is likely to be the problem that is causing it to not rev above 4k at idle or 3000 under load.

also, i noticed that there were white marks on the recently changed belt by PO. possible that it is a tooth off and causing these symptoms since it does appear to be a mark and pray job.

anyway to check without the tools which i dont have in hand yet but will be getting?

will it run a tooth off? any advice appreciated yet again.
 

OlyTDI

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Olympia, WA
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'04 Golf
Did you just purchase it? If so, you may be on to something with the TB job.

If you've experienced it working correctly previously and now it is acting up, I'd confirm lift pump working (should hear a whoosh coming from under the rear seats on key turn) and change out the fuel filter. If both are confirmed okay, look elsewhere. Sure sounds like fuel starvation but other than clogged filter, I don't think you can accelerate in a manner that exceeds fuel availability, even if the lift pump is toast.
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
thanks for the reply. here is the continuing update.

Fuel filter: changed. no change whatsoever.

Lift pump makes noise, i pulled it, cleaned the filter, reinstalled it. no change.

Ran a cleaner through it when i changed the filter ( what i refilled it with)

only problem noted so far is the second to last cam lobe (closest to tandem pump, furthest from cam) is worn, lifter under it looks perfect still.

timing belt looks 3k old like PO said but has white mark on it so i think he did a mark and pray type job. (yes i just purchased it, from a guy who said it was done 3k ago and ran fine for 1500 miles then started acting up, didnt ask him who did it, he also said his mechanic said it needed a cam and he didnt want to spend the money on it so he was selling it, got it cheap enough to afford cam/parts and still not do bad and the guy was not dishonest about it needing work at time of sale)

i am just wanting to be sure that one worn cam lobe could cause all of this before i do the job, if it is something else i want to fix that first then do the cam.

any chance tandem pump is failing and how would i verify that? it just seems like a fuel issue but granted have no way of knowing/verifying that just yet.

would one worn cam lobe on a perfect looking lifter cause these symptoms?

would one tooth off run on a BEW PD engine with symptoms noted or would it just not really run at all?

any way to check without TB tools for BEW? i notice there is no timing thing in vag com for a PD engine like an ALH. i have not timed a PD TDI belt but i have done several on an ALH. i will be ordering the PD tools soon but currently only have ALH tools.

any feedback continues to be appreciated. i would really like to learn a bit more as i go along. I plan on changing cam in near future but want to verify it is causing my problem first, i would much rather change it after fixing this problem so i can tell if I did a good job with it easier if that makes sense. seems like a way to create 2 problems unless i can verify that is the issue.

again symptoms are: wont rev past 4k neutral/ clutch in (more like 3800 average) when floored

will drive fine when you slow poke it and you can hit 3500 in 3rd gear if you accelerate slowly

4th and 5th you basically stop at 3k period. can get up to 80 in 5th but sluggish past 2k and if you try to hard you feel it stumble occasionally. it is not limp mode in the usual way, no key reset required, tries to boost the whole time, just wont go. i have experienced overboost triggered limp and this is not that.

actual boost checks out on vag com, actual Maf checks out on vag com. new fuel filter, new tank of fuel, lots of diesel Kleen, lift pump in tank hums, it was pulled and cleaned. no check engine lights. noted to have the worn cam lobe described above with good lifter.

anyone who can shed light or offer ideas is welcomed.
 
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Wilkins

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British Columbia
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05 Jetta Wagon 5sp, 10 Sportwagen 6MT
BEW Timing is set by the Cam position because the camshaft runs the unit injectors. It’s called torsion value for some reason, do a search and you will find lots of threads. No idea if that is the problem but worth checking out. I think if the timing is far enough out it reads zero though so be careful how you interpret what you see.

For what it’s worth my car ran ok without a lift pump at all.

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/517/PD_fuel_delivery_check.pdf Is a description of how to troubleshoot PD fuel problems.

Good luck
 

mjydrafter

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dsm, ia
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2004 Jetta Wagon
Hopefully someone else will chime in, but that cam lobe (near the TP) wearing is weird (not saying you're wrong).

I believe it's usually the lobes near the TB that wear badly. That's what I found when mine went anyway.

I agree with Wilkins, that you should do some more trouble shooting, before you start throwing parts at it. Test the tandem pump. Find Dan's post in the BEW specific forum.
 

whitedog

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Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
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2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Since you have the other BEW, log the MAF and compare. The engine should Rev freely to redline in neutral and if not, it likely the MAF.
 

JB05

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Il.USA
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Golf,2005,anthracite blue
Group 4 under Engine will give you the timing(torsion value). I have mine set at 0.0. Do you know the condition of the turbo and the actuator?
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
thanks for the replies. i did do that. i didnt actually swap mafs but i checked my other BEW revs to 5100 or so in neutral no problem. unplugged the maf and it did the same, still revved to 5100, at neutral. so i ruled out the maf, also logged the sick car's maf and it was matching spot on, 800's and so on.

torsion value which i am slowly understanding a bit more after a lot of reading is 0.0. seems to imply it is a brand new belt and i guess on properly?

no idea about the turbo, except for the fact that i ran it and it matched actual and specified just fine. runs seemingly fine until you hit the magic rpm and it was not failing to provide actual specified boost for instance in a 5th gear run even though it limits at 3200 or so rpm wise the actual boost was graphing as a straight line that dropped back down when i let off . the gas. when i was driving it with just a regular scan gauge it was going up to 17 psi or so and then hanging out at 15 psi or thereabouts until i let off and it would drop back down. still wouldnt go past 3k though give or take a 100.

on that note about to leave for work and am going to put my scan guage on my working bew and watch the boost and fuel flows (GPH) at higher rpms and compare if possible

thanks for the replies. please keep them coming, bew is a bit trickier to check at least for now since my other one has as stated before behaved itself perfectly.

i will check mechanical timing when i get tools and probably do cam at same time. think i am not changing the belt since it looks brand new and torsion value is 0.0 which seems to corroborate that.

keep the advice coming please
 
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Carlos_TJ

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Tijuana Mexico
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2009 Bora (BXE PD)
0.0 torsion value is either center of adjustment range OR completely out of range (+/-7.00)

I would loose the cam sprocket bolt and bump the cam timing and measure again to see what the number is. (See torsion adjustment threads for more details on how to adjust)

Another way to know if the Engine torsion is zero is to insert the Indexing tools. This is more involving because more parts need to come off.
 
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andreigbs

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Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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Agreed: have to check mechanical timing. If it is out of time, it will also affect fuel delivery.

Verify by lining up crankshaft, insert lock pin and verify that cam is where it needs to be accordingly. This is much easier on PDs than ALHs, as are timing belt jobs.

Anyway, once that is done, I (personally) would advance cam timing, as read by torsion value, to about +0.5 which made a difference on my BEW.

Out of curiosity, I would check the injector balance numbers at idle. The closer to each other (and closer to 0) they are, the more balanced they are. Wonky numbers or large variation of -/+ more than 2 would concern me.

First things first: verify mechanical timing, make sure tensioner hasn't slipped or been put on wrong (common occurence).
 

Carlos_TJ

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2009 Bora (BXE PD)
Thats why i was suggesting loosen the sprocket bolts and give the cam a light light bump. If the torsion reads "-1.0" or "+1.5" you know your original "0.0" was true. If it still reads "0.0" or the car refuses to start, it was waay out of optimal time.

Just sayin'
 

whitedog

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Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Take the good BEW out and watch what the MAF reads under a WOT pull. It seems like it should be well over 800, but mine runs fine so I never have need to check it either.
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
man this is pure gold. thanks a bunch for the info. i wont be able to do this till wednesday afternoon as i am working but this is why i love this forum.
i had no idea it would go back to 0 once it went further out of range.

i wont be able to check mechanical timing till my tools arrive but i can bump it a bit and see if it moves as described.
i still plan on checking mechanical timing once tools arrive and of course replacing the cam but as mentioned just want to make sure i am not working on 2 different problems as that can get confusing for an inexperienced mech like myself.

i will read the tandem pump thread through as well thanks for the link.

i have warmed a bit to the BEW after seeing how much nicer a timing belt job will be but still love my alh's too...

thanks again for the info, will post back when i have some more info to add.
will definitely put the final fix once i have it and look forward to learning more as i go along.
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
read the tandem pump thread carefully going to try to check output and pressure. may need to order parts for the 1500 rpm test, i dont think i have a banjo bolt in my fuel pressure test kit
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
ok, so update on fuel pressure and output tests:

did the lift pump test with it hooked to 12V, it's output was low...about 2.3 lit per min. checked it twice was w/in a hundred ml or so at most 2.4l/min

psi on that same deal was 10 so that part was ok or w/in range but flow was low.

then i did the return leak test and it was way more than the 0 to 25 cc specified. got about 75 ml/ min times two different one minute tests.

then i tried to do the fuel pressure test off the port and failed. my kit has a banjo bolt with fuel fitting for the guage that is 12 x 1.5 and i had a spare oil line so i hooked it up on the fititng and capped off the oil line effectively using it as washer and that was a no go. fuel would run out of the end when i took the cap off but had no pressure, guage would not move.
thought maybe it needed to be on the end of the oil line set up so i adapted it to fit on there and still nothing, could get fuel out when i pressed the relief valve of the gauge in a slow stream but no reading.
not sure if this is because it just has zero pressure or if i am reading it wrong.
it did fail the return test by having high output. lift pump in tank also has lower than spec flow. 2.3 in stead of > than 3 lpm.

any tips on reading the pressure at the port? i have the O Reilly fuel pressure kit and it has the banjo bolt with fitting for the guage on the other end, the 12 x 1/5 thread side threaded right in, hooked the guage up to the fitting. nothing.

thinking about swapping tandem pumps with my other bew even though i hate to screw with the working one but i also dont want to order one of those if i am not sure it is bad.
is the return test enough to verify it bad? i tried blipping the throttle but gauge didnt move which seemed strange when i had it hooked to the test port... think something is screwy there but possibly with my tool, seems like it would read some psi there since it is supposed to be 51 at 1500.
any opinions/tips on what is going wrong there/ how to do it better.. welcome. still trying to sort this.

changed the maf with my good one by the way, no change, my good one ran like a scalded cat with the sick cars maf so def not that, it looked good on vagcom anyway but now i am positive ...
 
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speedy223

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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
well... sounds like both possibly doesnt it? i mean the lift pump is underperforming but i believe that the pump leaking too much means it is bypassing in the tandem or have i read that right? possibly the lift pump led to tandem pump failing?

update number one: i read a deal where it says that depending on the BRAND of tandem you have 75ml/min return or so with lift pump running is normal. so i have to check that tomorrow. that was not mentioned to my knowledge in the PD tandem pump write up but i found it in another thread where the guy said he replaced it and fixed a problem he was having but the return flow was still 75 ml/min. think it was a bosch one. i guess the LUK if i remember right would be the 25 ml/min one.

update number two: in regards to not being able to read pressure at fuel pressure test port see below will post tomorrow when i am sure but here is my guess:

i think i have been looking at a diagram with only one place to read fuel pressure and i have a pump with both the return regulator port and the fuel pressure port. bet i have been reading off the wrong one and just used a fitting from my multi kit that fit that and assumed it was 12 x 1.5. . makes sense why there is some fuel but no psi. and also why i was not able to use the bolt from the oil line like the one guy used. i thought i misread what he used when mine wouldnt thread and it was 12x1.25 or something.
feel kind of dumb about that...just hit me in my chair while i was looking at the diagram i was using and then a picture of a pump with 2 ports. i will check in the morning but i may have bought a pump anyway if i lost the spring that goes in that or deformed it. lol. you live you learn. will update it tomorrow.
 
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speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
i checked it a the correct test port. still no decent reading. not sure why. took the pump off, it is a bosch, took it apart and cleaned it and reassembled it. seemed fine but hard to say. makes good vacuum. thinking about buying a used one and trying it but wish i could prove it was failing.
again has one worn lobe 2nd to last from end closest to tandem pump. lifter is good.
maf has been swapped with working one.
going to pull the exhaust loose tomorrow see if that helps.
still wont rev past 3800 in neutral sometimes only 3500 or so.
no power past 3k. not limp mode. boosts around 15 psi according to guage.
lift pump has lower output around 2.5 l/min max, psi 10.
tandem pump returns around 75-80 ml/min. with pump wired on engine off. is a bosch, that seems to be what someone else posted theirs did,
tried reading pressure off correct port 2nd time around, get bouncing 10 at idle, nothing when you rev up, weird,
removed cleaned pump, has good vacuum after rebuild as before, no change.
also going to see if i can move the torsion value off 0 to see if it is timed right as per advice previous in this thread
open to ideas.

can one cam lobe cause this? seems weird.... still seems like fueling. doesnt seem like it could make it not rev past 3500 when it is working and the lifter is good

also thinking about swapping lift pump with my other one to see if it could do this...hate to mess with the tandem pump on the working one...
 
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UhOh

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PNW
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2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
I know that it isn't common on these engines, but, any chance this could be due to intake clogging? Symptoms sure are dead-on similar.
 

speedy223

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Apr 8, 2015
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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
man i dont know.... is there a way to check without removing? i pulled the egr when i pulled the valve cover and it was a bit coked up but i looked past it although admittedly i couldnt see very far....
the weird part is that it doesnt smoke. it starts right up and drives but it does not smoke heavily ever. just has no power.
i am going to look into that too. eventually i guess i will stumble on the answer meantime keep them coming please i am definitely wishing vw had put a fuel pressure sensor in this thing so i could tell if my car was getting enough fuel once and for all.
i am reading that alh mostly thread on limp mode but again, this is not limp mode. this half power mode, wont rev mode i dont know what to call it
i will try to examine the intake more carefully to see and will probably crack the exhaust open to see if it might be a clogging cat too
 

BobnOH

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May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
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New Beetle 2003 manual
VAGcom- Check if throttle position does go 0-100 (Group 002, Field 2). You might also check Groups 008 and 009 for injection quantities (may not apply to PD). Groups 010 and 011 should show it's asking for and getting plenty of air.
 

andreigbs

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Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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Correct mechanical timing has not yet been verified, correct?

It is possible that a failing lift pump can make the tandem pump work significantly harder, thus possibly shortening its life span as well. The fuel cannot bypass the tandem pump, I don't think the engine would run at all.

Difficult to verify but obviously something is preventing it from revving up through the whole RPM range: either fuel or air issue, or an electronic wall yet to be identified.

If you can swap lift pumps with your working BEW, you could rule that out.

You could also swap tandem pumps but you'll need a couple new gaskets first.

I second confirming throttle position as Bob suggested.
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
ok. sounds good, i will check the throttle position directly and see.
i am planning on swapping lift pumps next make sure it is not choking it down and i am going to verify mechanical timing soon.
tools arrived today so i can do that now
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
throttle goes from 0 to 100. seems to check out fine.

swapped lift pumps with my working one. no joy. did find out that one isnt working but no change. good one still revs to 5100 with bad ones pump and the bad one is unchanged possibly a bit worse with pump that doesnt kick on.
good one had a tan pump, bad one had a grey one, now they are switched around

throttle reads 0-100 no problem on the check

did finally throw a code P0501 vehicle signal implausible. not sure why, but that is the first code it has thrown i will look at that. but again today was the first time that happened.
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
i checked the fuel pressure on my other bew golf today, needle was bouncing like crazy at idle since i dont have a dampened guage but somewehere midway on a 100 psi guage, 1500 it was 50 -70 psi or so.
other one wouldnt read past idle. really leaning towards it being a bad tandem or leaking around injectors but going to try a used tandem pump and see what happens. they are cheap used.
it just seems like it is underfueled. turbo puts out good psi, and there is no black smoke period ever. it can be trolling along with no power completely floored boosting 12-15 psi and not a bit of smoke, revs topping out at 3200-3800.
when my turbo went on my alh it was putting out smoke that a Bond car escaping the enemy would be proud of, this one is completely smoke free.
i am going to try the tandem pump and check back. i would swap it but the other one is my work car that i need and i dont want to break something that is not broken.
the tandem pump on the good car reading wnl psi and the bad car not reading proper psi along with symptoms of underfueling make it a reasonable gamble for a used part.

timing went to 0.5 torsion when i loosened and tapped the cam from 0 so that seems to support carlostj's theory that it is within the correct range or it should have stayed at zero.

i also cracked the exhaust open yesterday at downpipe had about 3/4 of an inch gap actually and it made zero difference so guess the cat must be fine or at least not the problem
 
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andreigbs

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If you have more air than fuel in the mixture, you are not likely to have smoke. Overfueling is when you have "coal rolling." You are definitely underfueled or there is a sensor gone awry, causing the 3500 rpm wall.

Good job verifying lift pumps. Now you know you at least have one bad lift pump. I'd order a new one about now.

I would only swap tandem pumps to rule that out, and if you can pick up a known good one somewhere, that would help. Remember to use a new gasket and don't overtighten the mounting screws or it WILL leak.

Don't give up now...
 

speedy223

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east texas
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alh tdi new beetle 98, alh jetta 01, bew golf 04 all 5spds
fixed...finally. was the tandem pump. dropped a new "used" one in also a bosch and it fired right up and hit 5100 redline like it was brand new. still has a worn cam lobe but that was not the cause of the issue as the previous owner mechanic told him.

only cam symptom is a slightest lope at idle but it runs perfect now. will change cam at my leisure in next 10k or so but it is running perfect. pulls all the way up to redline in neutral,1st, 2nd and 3rd and runs well past 3k in 4th and 5th, i have not tried to redline it in those gears as it is already going 80 at 3500 or so and that is fast enough for me but it runs fine now.

thanks for all the tips....i have learned a ton about bew's along the way.

so if you have one that wont redline even in neutral and tops out between 3300 and 4k and loses umph past 3k on highway suspect your tandem after ruling out obvious things like fuel filter or clogged lift pump in tank.

with a dampened fuel pressure guage it is easy to read the tandem pump,
i bought a banjo bolt with 12 x 1.5 threads and barbed fitting for 3/8 hose, fuel pressure guage should be dampened it vibrates alot. should read 50 psi at idle to 1500 or thereabouts when working well and pushes 100 psi when around 4k.

the vacuum side of the tandem pump that was bad was working perfectly by the way and the pump was not leaking at all. i had previously dissassembled it and could see nothing wrong. not sure why it did it but the new tandem pump definitely fixed it.

thanks again for all the input. be back another day for more advice.
 
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