Bosio PowerPlus Stage 2 764 - looking for hole diameter or flow rates
- Thread starter T3-UN1
- Start date
Scroll down this page and have a look http://dbwllc.net/nozzleselect.aspx
Flow Data: 173% Above Stock Flow
So what is stock flow/diameter? 0.205, 0.183......
How do they measure the flow, with or without injector bodies?
I can't calculate new maps from this data....
about 200 PS with low egt....
Drivbiwire
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Hole sizes are not relevant to flow of any nozzle since this does not reflect the caviation effects that are caused by larger diameter holes and the turbulence created by the flow entry into the nozzle channels.
Also hole size is simply a function of the initial production process, there are several other steps performed that determine the ulimtiate flow characteristic of a nozzle. It's like comparing displacement of an engine and trying to determine what the HP per liter without knowing the actual HP... Size is a factor, but actual flow (of the nozzle) is the defacto data point that really matters.
As a further example, current production engines are getting 140Hp from a 2.0l engine using .117 holes, in the past the same engines were producing flows that supported only 90hp from .183 holes. The evolution of the nozzle has advanced that much in recent years.
Because of wide ranging variables all Flow data is measured on a nozzle flow bench using ISO 4113 calibration fluid. This measures peak volume delivery and cavitation effects. Nozzle flow is pushed to max delivery until flow drops as a result of cavitation, peak delivery volume, and slope of delivery relative to pressure (build and drop) is then recorded.
Nozzle evaluation cannot be done on the injector since there are variables introduced (pressure, flow, needle control etc) that cannot be standarized to provide a valid data point. All new Common Rail nozzles are set this way and that data is then emobossed on the injector which is loaded into the ECU. For fuel systme manufacturers, this allows a wider tolerance for manufacturing but a tighter control tolerance when installed on the injector body in respect to how the ECU controls that respective nozzle/body combination.
The reference flow nozzle is the DSLA 150P 706 Bosch PN# 0 433 175 150 (90hp 10mm pump configuration ALH TDI).
Also hole size is simply a function of the initial production process, there are several other steps performed that determine the ulimtiate flow characteristic of a nozzle. It's like comparing displacement of an engine and trying to determine what the HP per liter without knowing the actual HP... Size is a factor, but actual flow (of the nozzle) is the defacto data point that really matters.
As a further example, current production engines are getting 140Hp from a 2.0l engine using .117 holes, in the past the same engines were producing flows that supported only 90hp from .183 holes. The evolution of the nozzle has advanced that much in recent years.
Because of wide ranging variables all Flow data is measured on a nozzle flow bench using ISO 4113 calibration fluid. This measures peak volume delivery and cavitation effects. Nozzle flow is pushed to max delivery until flow drops as a result of cavitation, peak delivery volume, and slope of delivery relative to pressure (build and drop) is then recorded.
Nozzle evaluation cannot be done on the injector since there are variables introduced (pressure, flow, needle control etc) that cannot be standarized to provide a valid data point. All new Common Rail nozzles are set this way and that data is then emobossed on the injector which is loaded into the ECU. For fuel systme manufacturers, this allows a wider tolerance for manufacturing but a tighter control tolerance when installed on the injector body in respect to how the ECU controls that respective nozzle/body combination.
The reference flow nozzle is the DSLA 150P 706 Bosch PN# 0 433 175 150 (90hp 10mm pump configuration ALH TDI).
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Thx for your detailed answer. But what do you think is the best way to update my pumpvoltage map with proper values without measuriung the whole pump/nozzle combination on a pump flow bench?
Isn't there a quick and dirty calibration/calculation method?
Isn't there a quick and dirty calibration/calculation method?
On ecuconnections.com a guy called brum has made some sort of extrapalation/interpolation spreadsheet to try and calibrate the pump voltage map for new nozzles. Not that once you do this you have to then change alot of other maps and a few single values in the ecu to inject larger quantities and control boost etc for these larger quantities.
I participate too in this thread. My name at ecuconnections is "passuff"
We were calculating just with geometric and no hydraulic data, so this is exactly what Drivbiwire mentioned to be wrong.. I know it's wrong, but is there another way?
And I'm still looking for hole diameter of my nozzles and hole diameter of reference flow nozzle ( DSLA 150P 706 Bosch PN# 0 433 175 150)...
Drivbiwire
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Here is the issue, and it's not with the injectors.
The VE injection pump does not provide constant pressure. Pressure is rpm dependent which is a huge variable. To make this worse, depending on the condition of the pump head you may have higher or lower peak pressure for a given rpm. Just like a nozzle you also have "Leak-Back" at the pump head, this is the volume of fuel leaked back into the pump during peak pressure, this will vary depending on rpm, pressure and volume displaced.
In my opinion you would need to use a specific pump with known pressure and volume output at specific rpm points. Using this and the maximum peak volume of the nozzle you could then plot the flow data which could be used in your tuning.
To sum it up, the pump is the largest factor that determines how a nozzle ultimately flows since this is the source of the pressure and volume. The nozzle is the ultimate "Limiting" factor since this determines how the pressure and volume are broken up during the actual injection event.
This is why we have to eliminate the pump variables when testing nozzles that is to eliminate all the typical error factors associated with the VE pump system.
In respect to the pump voltage, if a pump has higher leakage you will see a higher voltage requirement for a given displaced volume. If you have a newer pump with tighter flow characteristics you could high a higher volume displaced with a lower voltage requirement.
What I would like to see is a method of determining a pumps output based on a specific voltage. Of course you also have other factors such as pump head position (hammer mod) etc which can cause errors in terms of actual displaced volume. One option would be a volume displaced over a specific number of injections at a specific set pressure. This could be done at idle. However just like the common rail injectors you would need additional plots at 1/2 and 100% of full rated pressure again for a specific number of injection events. This is why the injector itself and its specific flow data can't be used to set the ECU mapping.
The common rail since the flow data is encoded in the 6 digit code at 3 specific pressure ranges can be used, this is based on precise pressure and volume data derived from that specific nozzle on a very precise pressure/flow bench. For us we have to insure that we have no more than a .02 bar maximum deviation otherwise the flow data is out the window...
Make sense?
The VE injection pump does not provide constant pressure. Pressure is rpm dependent which is a huge variable. To make this worse, depending on the condition of the pump head you may have higher or lower peak pressure for a given rpm. Just like a nozzle you also have "Leak-Back" at the pump head, this is the volume of fuel leaked back into the pump during peak pressure, this will vary depending on rpm, pressure and volume displaced.
In my opinion you would need to use a specific pump with known pressure and volume output at specific rpm points. Using this and the maximum peak volume of the nozzle you could then plot the flow data which could be used in your tuning.
To sum it up, the pump is the largest factor that determines how a nozzle ultimately flows since this is the source of the pressure and volume. The nozzle is the ultimate "Limiting" factor since this determines how the pressure and volume are broken up during the actual injection event.
This is why we have to eliminate the pump variables when testing nozzles that is to eliminate all the typical error factors associated with the VE pump system.
In respect to the pump voltage, if a pump has higher leakage you will see a higher voltage requirement for a given displaced volume. If you have a newer pump with tighter flow characteristics you could high a higher volume displaced with a lower voltage requirement.
What I would like to see is a method of determining a pumps output based on a specific voltage. Of course you also have other factors such as pump head position (hammer mod) etc which can cause errors in terms of actual displaced volume. One option would be a volume displaced over a specific number of injections at a specific set pressure. This could be done at idle. However just like the common rail injectors you would need additional plots at 1/2 and 100% of full rated pressure again for a specific number of injection events. This is why the injector itself and its specific flow data can't be used to set the ECU mapping.
The common rail since the flow data is encoded in the 6 digit code at 3 specific pressure ranges can be used, this is based on precise pressure and volume data derived from that specific nozzle on a very precise pressure/flow bench. For us we have to insure that we have no more than a .02 bar maximum deviation otherwise the flow data is out the window...
Make sense?
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robnitro
Veteran Member
0.117 holes but how many? Is it 6 on the CR?
Also, the pressure is much higher in CR/PD compared to the 90hp ALH. In the CR at least its consistent too, not related to engine speed.
That would also account for more fuel/power.
DPM
Top Post Dawg
"consistent" as in "mapped over the full engine operating range"
@Drivbiwire
Completely correct . And yes - makes a lot of sense.
The calculations I did were based on same pump with different injectors (VAG has 10mm pump with 3 type of injectors, .183 and .205 with pilot pressure of 190bar and .205 with pilot pressure set to 220bar. This managed to work for the 10mm pump pretty well.
But when I got to the 11mm pump - nothing worked as expected. So what I've found as a way to calibrate the pump voltage map is to use AFR (one that can measure lower AFR like 40:1) and the MAF readings. Then all you need is a day or two and place to play with the pump voltage maps.
What I have now is pretty correct pump voltage map for 11mm stock VAG pump (complete, including cam plate) and Firad .216mm + 25% nozzles. If someone needs it - I'll be glad to share it .
Completely correct
. And yes - makes a lot of sense.The calculations I did were based on same pump with different injectors (VAG has 10mm pump with 3 type of injectors, .183 and .205 with pilot pressure of 190bar and .205 with pilot pressure set to 220bar. This managed to work for the 10mm pump pretty well.
But when I got to the 11mm pump - nothing worked as expected. So what I've found as a way to calibrate the pump voltage map is to use AFR (one that can measure lower AFR like 40:1) and the MAF readings. Then all you need is a day or two and place to play with the pump voltage maps.
What I have now is pretty correct pump voltage map for 11mm stock VAG pump (complete, including cam plate) and Firad .216mm + 25% nozzles. If someone needs it - I'll be glad to share it
.Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 1998
- Location
- Boise, Idaho
- TDI
- 2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Common rail does not operate at constant pressure and is ALWAYS related to engine rpm and load. The ECU controls the pump output Pressure on a CR engine and is varied according to load as well as rpm via the pressure regulator on the pump unit. Common rail engines "Can" operate at 1800 bar, however they will typically operate at 400 bar in most load regimes to reduce load on the engine and maximize fuel economy. The variable pressure and variable volume characteristic is why the nozzles have to be flowed and that data entered into the ECU to insure the injector is controlled properly before the ZFDA corrections are applied in normal operation.
Yes they do use more holes however the flow per hole is higher than older generation and nozzle designs.
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