NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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Blackheart

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Barrell33 said:
What additive you use?
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I live in Northern Utah above 5000 feet, so, it's cold....I use the White Bottle of Power Service Arctic Formula. I'm not saying it's the best thing out there...I'm not sure what is. It's just what I'm using. I use the grey bottle of Power Service Diesel Kleen in the warmer months. I'll certainly defer to anyone that has unbiased information that indicates something else is better.
 
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kjclow

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Barrell33 said:
Just bought 2013 Jetta TDI sedan. After reading all the hpfp began looking for ways to protect myself from getting this failure. BP offers a guarantee on their fuel. Has anyone heard of someone having failure with bp fuel and the results?
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That may depend on if the diesel fuel at that station is actually a BP product or one they buy from somewhere else. Around here, a lot of the name brand stations have a sticker on the diesel pumps stating that it is not their product.
 
Plus 3 Golfer

Plus 3 Golfer

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kjclow said:
That may depend on if the diesel fuel at that station is actually a BP product or one they buy from somewhere else. Around here, a lot of the name brand stations have a sticker on the diesel pumps stating that it is not their product.
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Yep, everytime I've filled at a BP station (usually on trips) after I found out about that sticker, that sticker has been in place and there has also been a sticker that says "may contain upto X% biodiesel". I believe that it's the possible addition of biodiesel to the fuel that BP feels warrants the "not a branded BP product" sticker.
 
MonsterTDI09

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I saw one last week in Va, this one was at a Shell.The sticker was on the pump for over the road trucks.I didn't see the warning on there regular pump.
 
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GoFaster

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It's likely that most of the Japanese manufacturers will use the Denso equipment. That HPFP is very different from Bosch, but it also has rollers running against nests that push the plungers - essentially the Bosch CP4.1 arrangement turned inside out - and it has four of them. Whether they addressed the issues that the CP4.1 has, is anybody's guess, but it's foreseeable that the same situation could exist. I speak of the forces acting on each roller - it's indeterminate whether the roller will roll against the cam and slide against the nest (design intent) or slide against the cam and be stationary against the nest (bad - but which way it goes, depends only on the differences between the friction coefficients).
 
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Roshermoore

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Actual Document

flyboy320 said:
Ya, someone should post to that article the actual numbers that VW submitted to the NHTSA.
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This is the document that shows numbers of failures and also has recommendations for remedy.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

I believe these are the numbers.

b) In response to this inquiry, Volkswagen has identified 5891 field reports involving
5208 unique VINs, involving a diesel HPFP related to the alleged defect in the subject
vehicles. Volkswagen notes that this number is inclusive of field reports that exhibit a
misfuel or fuel quality concern. Please note that the volume of field reports is a result
of Volkswagen’s policy for dealers to call prior to repairs to release an HPFP.
 
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Tin Man

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What would be even more revealing would be the number of HPFP failures found in direct injection gasoline engines being put on the market now.

BMW 335i twin turbo's have HPFP failures while curiously 335d's seem not to. BMW has documented a different internal specification for fuel system components for their diesel engines produced for North America.

I hope that people can sit back and try not too hard to fit the theory to the data: lubricity may not be "the answer" here. The bottom line may just be fuel system design. Data from Mercedes and BMW seem to be missing in the conversation here and probably unavailable so far.

However, just one tank of "good fuel" doesn't say whether the owner used "bad fuel" the previous fill-ups, with time, ruining the fuel pump. So even VW's data is limited in value IMO.

TM
 
S

seasu

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Add one more to the list..
2011 JSW with 22,000 miles on it died yesterday.
Just heard back from dealer that it is HPFP. They are awaiting word back from VW.


Mesa Arizona
 
scdevon

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seasu said:
Add one more to the list..
2011 JSW with 22,000 miles on it died yesterday.
Just heard back from dealer that it is HPFP. They are awaiting word back from VW.


Mesa Arizona
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Did you use additives? This would be useful information.
Not trying to judge your additive decision one way or the other.
 
P

padlock

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Roshermoore said:
This is the document that shows numbers of failures and also has recommendations for remedy.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM430237/INRL-EA11003-54326P.pdf

I believe these are the numbers.

b) In response to this inquiry, Volkswagen has identified 5891 field reports involving
5208 unique VINs, involving a diesel HPFP related to the alleged defect in the subject
vehicles. Volkswagen notes that this number is inclusive of field reports that exhibit a
misfuel or fuel quality concern. Please note that the volume of field reports is a result
of Volkswagen’s policy for dealers to call prior to repairs to release an HPFP.
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I found this in the document linked:

"Going even beyond Volkswagen’s customer information service action for MY 2009 to MY 2012 vehicles, Volkswagen incorporated a mechanical misfuel protection system in all TDI Clean Diesel vehicles for the US market beginning with the 2013 model year. "

If VW's assertion that the majority of HPFP are due to misfueling is correct, then this should mean that the number of failures we'll see in MY 2013 will be down drastically. If not, wouldn't that be a pretty strong indication that misfueling wasn't the prime cause of the failures?

As an aside, how can you tell if you've got this protection system? I'm curious if my Canadian 2013 TDI has it.
 
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roostre

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padlock said:
I found this in the document linked:

"Going even beyond Volkswagen’s customer information service action for MY 2009 to MY 2012 vehicles, Volkswagen incorporated a mechanical misfuel protection system in all TDI Clean Diesel vehicles for the US market beginning with the 2013 model year. "

If VW's assertion that the majority of HPFP are due to misfueling is correct, then this should mean that the number of failures we'll see in MY 2013 will be down drastically. If not, wouldn't that be a pretty strong indication that misfueling wasn't the prime cause of the failures?

As an aside, how can you tell if you've got this protection system? I'm curious if my Canadian 2013 TDI has it.
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Here's a post with a picture and explanation from member "fredthe" about the mechanical misfuel protection on his 2013 Passat:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=3917653#post3917653
 
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birkie

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padlock said:
I found this in the document linked:
Volkswagen incorporated a mechanical misfuel protection system in all TDI Clean Diesel vehicles for the US market beginning with the 2013 model year. "
If VW's assertion that the majority of HPFP are due to misfueling is correct, then this should mean that the number of failures we'll see in MY 2013 will be down drastically. If not, wouldn't that be a pretty strong indication that misfueling wasn't the prime cause of the failures?
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We'll see. I would at least hope that a failure on a '13 would draw a little bit more scrutiny, as it makes it harder to blame the customer by default.
 
Lightflyer1

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Well maybe. The adapter can stop you from filling with gas, but it won't stop someone from putting the nozzle up there and squeezing the handle and trickling some in before they realize what they did wrong. If only a tiny amount of gas mixed in will kill the hpfp, I don't see the adapter being of much use. They can still blame the vehicle owner as well.
 
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luked

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padlock said:
I found this in the document linked:
"Going even beyond Volkswagen’s customer information service action for MY 2009 to MY 2012 vehicles, Volkswagen incorporated a mechanical misfuel protection system in all TDI Clean Diesel vehicles for the US market beginning with the 2013 model year. "
If VW's assertion that the majority of HPFP are due to misfueling is correct, then this should mean that the number of failures we'll see in MY 2013 will be down drastically. If not, wouldn't that be a pretty strong indication that misfueling wasn't the prime cause of the failures?
As an aside, how can you tell if you've got this protection system? I'm curious if my Canadian 2013 TDI has it.
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I think that the primary concern from TDI owners is not a "misfuel" but rather fuel contamination, which VW can't fix "mechanically."

That being said, we just fueled up our 2013 JSW for the first time and it's a lot nicer than the 2009 Jetta we have, where the diesel nozzles don't really fit in firmly. My understanding is that the 2013 can use high-flow nozzles as well, which can be helpful when travelling.
 
Lightflyer1

Lightflyer1

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The 2013 can only use the one small nozzle that fits the device. If you remove it, it can fit more. I don't think that includes the big truck nozzles though and I don't think I would want to use those anyway for my car.
 
Tin Man

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The BMW 335d has such a device. I know because occasionally a station will use the wrong size nozzle for the diesel pump - usually one for unleaded - and it won't work, even though it fits into the hole.

On the other hand, BMW supplies you with an adapter for use with the large truck nozzles in case you get stuck at a station that only has those.

TM
 
darrelld

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DubFamily said:
You can also buy the adapter from either BMW or VW (it is the exact same adapter for both).

Cost is around $15
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You can buy the adapter through Amazon, shipped from a VW dealer. Comes in a plastic tube with a pair of rubber gloves. I carry it in my trunk on long road trips just in case.
 
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