Will there be an Approved Fix for Pre 2016 NMS Passats?

unixb0y · Jul 19, 2016

I'm wondering when the fix will be approved for those that are considering keeping their cars?

What will the fix be? Re-flash of the ECU + def temp sensor+ more def usage? or maybe a larger DPF.

VeeDubTDI · Jul 19, 2016

I'm not sure what you want us to tell you.

The proposed fix is outlined in the settlement documents as follows.

3.3 Additional Requirements for Generation 2 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicles: In addition to the requirements of Paragraph 3.1, each Proposed Emissions Modification for a Generation 2 2.0 Liter Subject Vehicle must also:

3.3.1 Require that the SCR system is capable of detecting the presence of
mostly to entirely water (less than 1% DEF) in the DEF tank and initiating Inducements based on such detection. Settling Defendants must describe all Inducement strategies and such Inducement strategies must be consistent with the SCR Guidelines and the original certification applications submitted by Settling Defendants.

+ ODB compliance for automatic and manual transmission vehicles, threshold monitors must detect a malfunction before NMOG + NOx emissions exceed 0.240 g/mile and before PM emissions exceed 0.0175 g/mile.

Compliant emissions: ≤ 0.240 g/mile NMOG + NOx and ≤ 0.0175 g/mile PM

We won't know more about what gets approved or rejected until at least the end of this month, which is when the public comment period closes. Granted, EPA approval may be following a different timeline, so it could be longer than that.

Rico567 · Jul 19, 2016

Is the OP asking if there will be a specific fix, and what that is? I'm sorry but my Magic 8-Ball is in the shop today.
My understanding is that there are NO fixes at present, and NO date has been advanced when such might be available.

Mark SF · Jul 19, 2016

If it's true that compliant emissions would be 0.240 g/mile, this is quite encouraging as it should be technically not that hard. That's about half the real world emissions now, for the gen 2. That should be possible with a tweak to the tuning, a bump up in DEF usage, and a bit more EGR. Should maybe knock another 10% off fuel economy (in addition to the 10% I lost with the ECU update last year). That number's a guess, of course.

I was worried that the EPA and CARB would insist on less than 0.050 g/mile.

unixb0y · Jul 19, 2016

I'm struggling to explain my thought process.

VeeDubTDI and Mark SF's comments help ease my concerns.

Wouldn't adding water to the def tank eventually end up cooking the DPF? Seems an odd requirement to add a sensor.

fredthe · Jul 19, 2016

Looking at the NY State lawsuit documents, I expect it's mostly an increase in DEF usage, plus some EGR tuning, along with the added SCR sensing mentioned above.

As for dates, the expected submission dates are between December 16, 2016 and March 3, 2017, with a possible 14 day extension. The target for EPA/CARB approval is 45 days after that.

So it could be as early as Febuary or as late as May 2017 before we know if there's a fix or not. The way I read it if there's nothing submitted by the end of March 2017 then there won't be a fix.

atc98002 · Jul 19, 2016

They don't want people just filling the tank with water, instead of the proper urea solution, trying to save a few bucks.

I was under the impression it already had a urea detector to look for such errors.

Nebelwerfer · Jul 21, 2016

I love living where there's no emissions policy. My car will never see the dealership again when this "fix" comes out.

10% reduction in mileage? Buh bye.

Regards

Mark SF · Jul 21, 2016

Maybe the $6,700 that I'll get in return for having the fix done, will sweeten the pill of 10% mileage reduction.

A 10% increase would cost me approximately $91 a year, by my reckoning, or to put it another way, $6700 is 74 years of fuel cost increase.

Or to put it another way, just the interest on the $6,700 will be more than enough to pay for any extra fuel.

But yes, I can see how you'll definitely be the winner by not getting your car fixed.

surroundsound64 · Jul 23, 2016

Nebelwerfer said:
I love living where there's no emissions policy. My car will never see the dealership again when this "fix" comes out.
10% reduction in mileage? Buh bye.
Regards

X2

Mark SF said:
Maybe the $6,700 that I'll get in return for having the fix done, will sweeten the pill of 10% mileage reduction.

A 10% increase would cost me approximately $91 a year, by my reckoning, or to put it another way, $6700 is 74 years of fuel cost increase.

Or to put it another way, just the interest on the $6,700 will be more than enough to pay for any extra fuel.

But yes, I can see how you'll definitely be the winner by not getting your car fixed.

And IF they try to withhold payment unless letting the dealer fix my not broken car, then I'll let them fix it and then I'll really fix it with some deletes and tuning.
The EPA and our government are completely out of control and I'm glad VW did what they did.

Yankinwaoz · Jul 26, 2016

unixb0y said:
I'm wondering when the fix will be approved for those that are considering keeping their cars?
What will the fix be? Re-flash of the ECU + def temp sensor+ more def usage? or maybe a larger DPF.

No one has a credible answer right now. So who knows.

My personal feeling is that there will be no fix. I don't think they are going to find a fix that satisfies CARB. I think that even if they can make the EPA happy, they aren't going to bother unless they can make CARB happy too.

I think that VW is going to abandon the TDi for a while. And wasting effort trying to patch up a platform they won't even sell any more just doesn't make sense.

jrm · Jul 27, 2016

+1 on that, I think they will dump the TDI and focus on plug in hybrid and 100% electric

czeetah · Jul 27, 2016

atc98002 said:
They don't want people just filling the tank with water, instead of the proper urea solution, trying to save a few bucks.

Really, we can just add water and it's all good? (Well, besides obviously not having effect of lowering emmissions)

No harm to mechanicals, only effect is increased pollution?

Of course DEF is so cheap I wouldn't want to do it.

atc98002 · Jul 28, 2016

czeetah said:
Really, we can just add water and it's all good? (Well, besides obviously not having effect of lowering emmissions)

No harm to mechanicals, only effect is increased pollution?

Of course DEF is so cheap I wouldn't want to do it.

No, there's already a sensor that detects incorrect fluid. Just adding water won't fool it. That is why I was questioning that part of any "fix". It's already there.

VeeDubTDI · Jul 28, 2016

atc98002 said:
No, there's already a sensor that detects incorrect fluid. Just adding water won't fool it. That is why I was questioning that part of any "fix". It's already there.

It might be there, but does it actually do anything? The DEF system is there, but as we know, it does very little with the cheat programming.

unixb0y · Jul 29, 2016

VeeDubTDI said:
It might be there, but does it actually do anything? The DEF system is there, but as we know, it does very little with the cheat programming.

I thought Canadians were going to find out more information today. Seems that the details of todays court proceedings are going to be kept confidential.

https://twitter.com/vwcanadatdi

unixb0y · Jul 29, 2016

CARB is commenting today:
http://fortune.com/2016/07/29/volkswagen-california-diesel-cars/

Air Resources Board Chair Mary Nichols said the agency is working with the German automaker to test potential fixes for three generations of Volkswagen cars equipped with 2.0-liter diesel engines and pollution control systems improperly designed to operate only during government pollution control tests.

... Nichols said VW is making strides in its effort to regain credibility with regulators.

“They brought in a whole new team of people to work on various aspects of this,” Nichols said in an interview. “There’s just a greater sense that we’re dealing with people who have access to the decision makers in Germany, and who understand their credibility is on the line.”

unixb0y · Aug 10, 2016

http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-submits-4-cyl-tdi-fix-for-epa-and-carb-scrutiny/

“The agencies have started to receive information from Volkswagen regarding a proposed emissions modification for the 2.0-liter Generation 3 vehicles,” confirmed EPA spokesperson Julia Valentine.

If the plan was submitted in full last Friday—which was all but officially confirmed—it triggers the start of a 45-day evaluation period, as stipulated in the settlement documents, in which EPA and CARB will use their “best efforts to either approve or disapprove each complete proposal.”

====

It sounds like the fix was submitted to EPA/CARB on July 29th. We should know by Monday, September 12, 2016 if the fix was approved.

I'm not 100% clear on what they are testing though. Are they testing Gen 3 cars that are in port (unsold 2016's)? Or do they mean CKRA e288 passats.

unixb0y · Aug 10, 2016

After doing some reading, I think I figured it out. Gen 3 cars are 2015+ Passats.

CKRA are Gen 2 cars which we won't know details on until or about December 16.

Will there be an Approved Fix for Pre 2016 NMS Passats?

unixb0y

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