TDI doesn't want to start/run

Hey I have been a long time listener, first time caller. I started a thread on vortex yesterday because I could not post on this forum till I got approved. So Sorry to cross forums but I need help!

Here is the thread
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...n-t-want-to-start-run&p=99687097#post99687097

Here is the first post.

I have a 2000 Jetta TDI and I have had it for about a week and it worked great the 600+ miles since I got it. Then one day, I parked it in normal running condition then later that night I went to drive home and it starts but rough(thinking I need to maybe check the glow plug system, nothing new) I start to drive and it stalls out. I try it again and it's a bit harder to start so I try to give it some juice but there is no effect and it stalls out again. A third time and it doesn't start till I crank it and cycle the glow plugs a few more times, then there's no chance it will run and I can't even play with the throttle. I bleed the fuel lines and they are spraying fuel but not as much as I would like UNTIL the engine starts running a bit(after many long cranks). There is fuel in the clear line after the filter(filter is new) so air in the fuel lines do not seem to be my problem. Next day I start playing with it again and same issues, but it actually started quicker the morning after then it did the last try the night before I put a jump wire from the B+ to the stop solenoid and no difference. I was holding the cable on the solenoid as my friend was cranking the motor and the cable slipped off the stop solenoid and grounded out at the fuel pump body, sparks flew... engine started running and I was able to drive it around drove it home later that day, no problem. Next morning, same starting issues where it would start and die once or twice and then no chance I have some ideas as to what it could be, but really I'm clueless. I want to hear what you all might think or send me links or push me into the right diag direction to help me out. I don't have VAGcom as of now but have just ordered it...

Thanks in advance

did you put some crappy fuel in it? (wrong fuel)? I would be isolating the fuel supply with fresh diesel in a jerry can directly to the fuel filter and see what happens.

whats the timing belt history?

Try disconnecting the MAF and see if any different.

check timing and maybe do a compression test just to rule it out

DTCssss

OK so I am borrowing a friends "Autel MaxiDas" scaner and I have these codes...

IMMOBILIZER
01312 - Powertrain Data Bus - sporadic - defective
01314 - Engine Control Module - sporadic - No communication
01316 - ABS Control Module - sporadic - No communication
01321 - Control Module for Airbags(J234) - sporadic - No communication
01315 - Transmission Control Module - sporadic - No communication

CAN GATEWAY had the same faults logged as the Immobilizer

These have me leaning towards relay 109, but I still have the glow plug light. MAYBE the relay is "ok" right now and that is why I am getting batt volts at stop solenoid and the GP light is turning on, but MAYBE the 109 relay has been faulty and has thrown codes causing the Immobilizer to activate???:sly: Any of that make sense? If so, how do I clear the immobilizer? Because I changed the relay with a known good "old" type from our 2000 bug TDI that won't die and it's still doing the same thing... I have read up that sometimes a bad 109 relay can damage/fry a ECM...

Something I remembered is that the batt light on the dash was flickering the last few 100mi or so and I could not find a reason for that because it was being charged around 14v.
Also the central locking would randomly lock when the keys were in or out of the car.

Also thanks for the suggestions...
FUEL is ok
TIMING is ok
COMPRESSION is ok
Timing belt needs to be changed but looks fine
Unplugged the MAF sensor and nothing changed

Timing belt needs to be changed but looks fine <cringe>, are you sure it didn't slip?

If the immobilizer was the issue the car would actually start and die out after a second or two.

The batt light is probably the alternator clutch acting up, the central lock acting up is probably the door switch, somewhat common items on these cars, doubt its related.

steve6 said:

Timing belt needs to be changed but looks fine <cringe>, are you sure it didn't slip?

If the immobilizer was the issue the car would actually start and die out after a second or two.

The batt light is probably the alternator clutch acting up, the central lock acting up is probably the door switch, somewhat common items on these cars, doubt its related.

Click to expand...

Good point on the immobilizer, I took back that Idea a few minutes after my last post after I did some reading... There is an immobilizer on my car but the the immobilizer light is not on.(and looking at your comment again, if it was the immobilizer, it would start then die pretty consistently(?), but in my case it starts every 20th try or so then dies...)
I guess what I was thinking was because it did not have any issues one day and the same night it started acting up, and how after I tried to jump the stop solenoid and accidentally shorted out the pump, it's seems to be an electrical issue, my own poor theory
so it seems to me that something controlling the fuel in the pump is limiting the fuel to the engine. Any validity to that at all? Or would it be possible "in theory" to start the car by jumping the starter and jumping the stop solenoid, and if the ignition was on and the timing was correct it would run? I am starting to get a feeling that that is correct due to a guy on vwvortex saying that the computer does not step in till the engine is idling.

SO I will do a thorough check of the timing and see what I get...

I guess I concern I have is, could the 109 relay cause damage to the ECM causing the car not to start at this point? or could it cause a control module to go it to limp mode and not let the car start? And even with a new/good 109 relay, would the car need a reset to enable it to run again? bad theory?

Here is an email I just wrote to a guy about changing the timing belt and adjusting the timing, so asking you all the same question...

I was wondering if it is possible to complete a timing belt job and get the car to at least run without using VCDS? I don't have vagcom yet but I was hoping to do the job without vagcom for now. So my real question is, will the car run (with the timing belt on correctly) even with the timing not perfect? My understanding is that the car should start but run rough until I get the timing correct. Does all that sound correct?

You don't need vcds to make the engine run, only dial in the IQ. If the pump, cam and crank is where they should be the car will start, you use VCDS to make minor adjustments to the pump for those mm's that the belts move/stretch etc.

is the cam sprocket moving when you turn the car over?

another idea is, if it was infact a timing issue, wouldn't I be able to feather the throttle after I eventually started it?

timing mark

steve6 said:

You don't need vcds to make the engine run, only dial in the IQ. If the pump, cam and crank is where they should be the car will start, you use VCDS to make minor adjustments to the pump for those mm's that the belts move/stretch etc.
is the cam sprocket moving when you turn the car over?

Click to expand...

that is my auto trans timing mark correct?
should it line up w the front of that hole? because there is no notch in the bell housing or around the crank shaft part of the timing belt.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/t...vgCXi1o_Sm2RBYzA8zNeGLKNJMN16AM=w1366-h643-rw

Sorry that the picture did not show up, I am at my shop now with the car and there is bad internet. The picture is of the hole in the transmission with what seems to be the timing mark. It is a bulge in the metal with a white paint mark on it. Does that look familiar?

steve6 said:

You don't need vcds to make the engine run, only dial in the IQ. If the pump, cam and crank is where they should be the car will start, you use VCDS to make minor adjustments to the pump for those mm's that the belts move/stretch etc.

is the cam sprocket moving when you turn the car over?

Click to expand...

You are not dialing in the IQ. You are dialing in the static timing when you loosen the three bolts on the injection pump and adjust, using VCDS to verify.

The timing mark on automatics looks like a 0 laying on its side with a line thru it. The line should line up with the bottom of the inspection hole on the transmission.

Timing mark/hole

hollowhead said:

The timing mark on automatics looks like a 0 laying on its side with a line thru it. The line should line up with the bottom of the inspection hole on the transmission.

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So this is the mark I have and this is the hole I have. Is that the correct timing mark for a 2000 vw TDI with an automatic trans? If so, where in the hole should it line up with? There is no notch/mark around the hole to line it up with. When you say "bottom of the inspection hole" do you mean the side of the square hole that is closest to the floor or front of the car? Sorry for the stupid questions, just want to make sure.
ALSO, that tool with teeth that should bolt to the block and hold the crank shaft timing sprocket in place, does that fit on all TDI's? if so, do I need it?

That doesn't look like the timing mark to me. Line up the cam and ip and you should be close. Turn the engine with the crankshaft bolt clockwise. Just a little movement of the crank moves the flywheel a lot.once you find the mark, line up the line thru the 0 with the bottom edge of the inspection hole towards the front of car.

Yes that is the timing mark on the far right.line it up with the bottom or inspection hole . I was looking on my phone earlier and it wasn't clear.

Timing is done, same problem.

hollowhead said:

Yes that is the timing mark on the far right.line it up with the bottom or inspection hole . I was looking on my phone earlier and it wasn't clear.

Click to expand...

OK so the timing is DONE and I'm still in the same boat... I have done a few timing belts/chains before but this is my first one on a ALH motor. The torque converter timing mark was right on target, the cam and the IP lined up perfectly when I tightened the tensioner wheel. The IP sprocket has plenty of play to advance or retard the timing. So the timing is in good standing. Like before, the car turns over nicely and after a while it will eventually run on it's own power but will soon after die out. In my limited understanding, the timing is on, or at least close enough to run. I can't think of any reason it would start up and run then die out. ANY help is appreciated!
ALSO when it starts running there is no response when I play with the "gas" pedal. Is that normal?

I used a MaxiDAS computer to read codes and I got...
P1601
P0380
P1538
however, I did remove the 109 relay(which is brand new) to check slot 30 and I was getting batt voltage. I am assuming I got these codes when the relay was out and the ignition was on.

Try advancing your timing by loosening the three ip bolts and turning the ip hub nut towards the front of car slightly to advance.

OK so I can gladly close this thread... so the issue the whole time was that the fuel filter apparently collapsed in on itself... I got a Duralast filter from Autozone and it went maybe 500 miles and... ya this whole issue... I put in a good one from my other tdi and all was good... Moral of the story is, KISS(keep it simple stupid) and don't buy off brands... Best one I can get a hold of now is a wix and might upgrade to an actual Bosch later Sorry for the hassle but thanks for the help!

Well, that's a simple fix. Wix makes great filters. I'd just use it for the full interval.

LOL that was all worth it for a good laugh! Well, maybe for the rest of us at least!

Glad you got it fixed.