Delayed Air Conditioning

Newgene · Jul 18, 2011

DanG144 said:
A one minute delay is probably about normal, not a malfunction.

From what you describe on your 2009, you need to verify that your fans are running. It sounds as if one or both of your fans may be faulty.

The typical fault is a 10 to 15 minute delay for the first use of the day, then it works ok for the rest of the day. Cutting in and out, or warming up when you slow sounds as if it may be some other problem.

I plan to check it again this weekend. I am assuming all of the dual fan systems require both fans to be running when the AC is on. If so, I can also check that quickly this week.

Also, do you think there is anything I would see on vagcom? If I ran the simple scan, would it give me an error when it hit that section?

DanG144 · Jul 18, 2011

On the 2009, a simple scan may show errors.

To test your fans, go to ENGINE controller and do the output tests. In one of them your fans should vary their speed from min to max. Both fans should always run at the same speed.

But there is much more to be learned from VCDS on your AC system.
go to AUTO HVAC controller and then to measuring blocks.
Look at your refrigerant pressure (sometimes called coolant pressure in VCDS - but even in those systems coolant temperature is engine coolant - can be confusing. It should run about 14 or 15 bar.
Your fan speed can also be seen.
As can your evaporator temperature.
and the status of any interlocks.

The VCDS is very valuable for troubleshooting your system.

john_tsouris@hotmail.com · Jul 18, 2011

I had this problem in 2006 BRM. Note #3 below if you are getting loud squealing when the AC is on!!!

1. One of the fans had stopped working. DON'T buy a fan. Take the old one apart and clean the road grit and sand that worked its way under the brushes. Take a scotch bad and brighten the copper up. Then, check fan operation at every oil change. Engine on, AC full blast. Both fans will ALWAYS run at the same time.

2. The non-working fan had destroyed the compressor. New compressor. Note that if a non stealership puts the compressor in, this system is NOT charged by looking at the pressure. A metered amount of oil and coolant must be injected.

3. At this time the clutch pulley on my alternator went. I had just had a new AC compressor put in, and after that, there would be a deafening squeal from the engine only when the AC was on! Guess what! It was NOT the AC clutch! It was the alternator clutch/pulley! You can imagine the timing of this was very confusing.

TmpaFL2000Dsl · Jul 18, 2011

So what is the general consensus on solving this problem? Does just changing the control valve do it or is a whole compressor needed.

I personally have fixed atleast five sd7v16 pumps with just a new control valve. So I wouldn't be that surprise if that is all that is needed.

I have a client with a 06 jetta TDi with this going on. I think I may try just replacing the control valve.

Anyone know where to source one? I believe it's the Sanden PXE16 pump.

Tim Birney · Jul 18, 2011

93 Degrees, 98% Humidity, no Air needed.
Roll the windows down and motor on.

Works great for me, because I grew up in the "OLD DAYS" before "Air Conditioning in Cars was even a generic item"...

I used to drive my old Convertibles in 110 Deg F, with the tops down (hint: open your windows and drive).

DanG144 · Jul 18, 2011

Maybe do a Google search of the site for RCV, Refrigerant Control Valve and Kentucky. Someone had a link to a guy in Kentucky that had the RCV for sale.

I put an ounce of PAG 46 oil with ICE additive in one car that had been sticking badly, and it is now on 2 months of no sticking.

So you may not even need the RCV.

Jbeers1234 · Jul 19, 2011

My 2009 started having this problem earlier this summer. I'd generally have to drive 8-10 min before the AC would start pumping cold air. Took it to my dealer with 35k on the odo, they seemed to be familiar with the problem, b/c they had it in and out in about 4 hours with a new compressor (under warranty)

I've had compressors go on previous cars, but never at 35k... thankfully the compressor replacement seemed to fix the issue, at least for the past 3 months.

J

hedgehog · Jul 27, 2011

DanG144 said:
That is the RCV or Refrigerant Control Valve. I hope it fixes your problem. Please let us know after a week or two.

Looks like replace the RCV indeed fix my AC problem.
No more delayed AC.

12vonly · Jul 28, 2011

My 2005.5 climatronic is doing the same thing.Should the fans began to turn soon as you turn the a/c on ? because mine don't. They will come on after the 5 miles down the road when it starts cooling.

DanG144 · Jul 28, 2011

The fans on the 05.5 later cars will not come on until the AC compressor builds up pressure. If it does not build up pressure the fans will not come on. In your case the compressor (or components in it) is the cause of the delay - there is no pressure until the delay is over.

This is not your problem, I know - just trying to be thorough.
If it does build up pressure, and the fans do not start, then the compressor will reduce its output to essentially zero, until you get to highway speeds and air flow builds up cooling the condenser, then it will start compressing/cooling again.

Gavin_1 · Jul 30, 2011

I would like to try and replace the RCV valve on my 2009 as well, can someone help me with a source?

kassel · Jul 31, 2011

Add one more to the group - 2006 Sedan with same problem - no cold ac for about 5 minutes. Fine on the highway. Taking to a different dealer for service under the extended warranty.

lou95gts · Jul 31, 2011

Is the RCV in the refrigerant system? I.E. Does the system need to be evacuated before replacement?

DanG144 · Aug 1, 2011

Yes. The RCV is inside the system boundary. It ports refrigerant through it. The system will need to have the charge reclaimed, then the work done, then recharge with the proper amount of refrigerant and oil. If I had to add oil, my present choice would be PAG 46 with "ICE32" additive - simply because this oil addition alone has cured my friend's AC delay for 2 months now.

redbarron55 · Aug 1, 2011

I am having sticking issues in addition to a solved problem with a missing flap on the fan shroud.
I thought I hav fixed the problem when the A/C would not cool at a stop. In this case after much searching I found one of the flaps missing on the shroud allowing the air to bypass the condenser coil.
I temporarially glued in a strip of thin rubberunilt I got the $7.00 flap from the dealer.
However..... my wife kept saying it was still not fixed. I checked and the dreaded delay was evident.
It would take 4-5 long min, or more in the 100 degree humid Mobile AL. heat to start working. Once it is working it is pretty much OK. Sometimes it takes a holiday, but cooling while slow or stopped is OK, unless the unit has cycled and decided to stick for a while.
I have ordered an aerosol can of ICE32 from NAPA and I will try it tomorrow.
I will let everyone know if it helps.
Wish me luck!

JDB

lou95gts · Aug 1, 2011

FYI, you can't get enough refrigerant into the system with the cans of R134 sold at PepBoys, WallyMart etc. There simply isn't enough pressure in these cans. You need to use a professional charging system. Refilling or "topping up" correctly is not possible for the backyard hack.

DanG144 · Aug 2, 2011

lou95gts said:
FYI, you can't get enough refrigerant into the system with the cans of R134 sold at PepBoys, WallyMart etc. There simply isn't enough pressure in these cans... QUOTE]

This is not correct. Not at all. You can very easily over charge the system with those cans.

You either must be patient and let the refrigerant cans warm to ambient via air flow, or you can put them into a bucket of warm water. Warm being maybe 15 degrees F above ambient. Hot tap water works well. Ensure you do not turn them upside down, to avoid getting a slug of liquid into your compressor. Just let the refrigerant boil off of the can and go into the low side of the system.

In my opinion you should always (at a minimum) be watching high side pressure while filling the system, so you can see signs of overpressurizing.

It is true that to properly put in the charge you should start with an evacuated system, and put in the proper weight of R134a, with the proper amount of oil. I put the oil into the compressor prior to evacuating.

lou95gts · Aug 2, 2011

I doubt it. Those cans have about 20 psi pressure. Not enough to fill or top up the system. You are right that refrigerant should be measured by weight not pressure.

DanG144 · Aug 2, 2011

You may doubt all you wish; no one has taxed that yet.

The pressure in the cans is determined by the temperature.

You can look it up on a chart, or type it into a calculator, or simply look at an R134a set of gauges - they have a temperature scale and a pressure scale. If you know the temperature, there is only one pressure possible, and vice versa.

What you are probably referring to is that as you bleed off the refrigerant, the can cools down, and the pressure drops. It will get down pretty low - as you say 20 psi or even lower. You can see the ice form on the outside of the can.

Simply put it in a bowl of warm water and the pressure will rise.

swoboda · Aug 2, 2011

succss finally

well just thought i had this one fixed. worked for a week then back to the same old problem. tried the oil his afternoon hope if works as well as the others seem to say. original post :

"Seems as though the control valve will fix the delay situation. Talked with fellow in Kentucky that really seemed to know a lot about these compressors. If you’ve got the Sanden compressor it’s worth a try. If you’ve got the Zexel replace the compressor. Got my valve and info from this group call 1-800-926-4445 ask for Blake.

think I also found a valve at:
www.aliexpress.com/product-gs/451943913-SANDEN-PEX16-PXE13-PXE16-Compressor-control-valves-Audi-Seat-VW--wholesalers.html
valve looks the same but connector does not look right.

Need to fill the system from the high side. To do that WITH THE ENGINE OFF I pulled a vacuum then fed the refrigerant in to the high side holding the can upside down. To push the extra in I heated the can with a hair dryer. Crude but it works. Be sure you shut the high side valve before starting the car or you could possible blow up a can. "

Not sure if I got it right but put in one and a half 12 oz cans. System called for 17 to 19 oz. the final high side pressure was 220 psig low side 40 psig ambient temperature was 102 deg F.

lou95gts · Aug 3, 2011

What did you use to pull the vacuum? A pump from Harbor Freight?
Never tried it like you described. Always hooked the can to the low side.

DanG144 · Aug 3, 2011

Yes, filling from the high side seems alien to me, unless you are adding oil. If you do fill from the high side, as you say, ensure the compressor is off. It would not matter if you put liquid in from the high side, but if doing it from the low side, ensure you do not add liquid - just gas.

The hair dryer would work well.

jkirkku · Aug 3, 2011

Same problem, had it since new. Takes a few minutes for cool air to come out, once it does air is cold. Sometimes the air stops at stop lights, then starts again once you're moving. I thought it was the fan. The dealer told us it was because we had a black car and black fleather interior. Get used to it. We had it in twice for it. Now we are out of warranty. I'll look into the RCV and oil once i get the ecm problem fixed!

DanG144 · Aug 3, 2011

Have you checked your fans? You should not get hot air at a stop light. That is almost always at least one bad fan.

redbarron55 · Aug 3, 2011

I had the problem of not cooling at stopped, but I checked and found that one of the flaps was missing. This let the air bypass the coil and cooling stopped. I replaced the missing flap with tape and the unit worked at a stop and low speeds, but it still took a long time to come on and cool.

It is difficult to tell the difference when you are driving between the delayed cooling and the missing flap.

My car also had the delay and would also stop cooling when the compressor satisfied the demand and backed off the stroke.

I had thought I had fixed the car several times, but my wife was quick to inform me that it was still not cooling right.

I read the previous post about using ICE 32 and ordered a can.

I can report that this has solved my problems (at least for now). The car cools right off and gets cooler faster.
It also will cycle and cool again as the demand is made.

Instead of driving around with the temp setting on the blue dot I had it at 72 F this afternoon. Them was 100F today and Connie said she did not notice the air conditioning, which is a good thing.

One does not want to irritate SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED!

I would reccommend ICE 32 to lubricate the internals that have to move to change the displacement to correspond the ht e demand.

My computer is broken now, but before the VCDS always read .860 A to the "clutch" which is the PWM signal (as best as I remember the current readout) is MAX. This would indicate to me that the conttrol system is asking all it can of the valve which I understand puts refrigerant pressure on the stroke adjustment mechanism to increase output of coolant as demand increases and decreases.

It would be good to watch the current demand change in response to demand. If it stays max then the compressor is not responding.

My take on this is the added lubricity and possibly detergent action allows the valve to either function as it should or lets the pressure move the swashplate mechanism in response to the demand.

Either way it has worked for me. The A/C is working like new now!

Best regards,

JDB

swoboda · Aug 3, 2011

got it right i bought a 70$ vacuum pump from harbor freight. works great for what i do. i'm with you about the filling from the high side but it worked. might be just my imagination but seemed to be easier that the low side.

DanG144 · Aug 4, 2011

Great news JDB. Every once in a while the Snake Oil barkers get it right, I guess. Though two successes is a long way from a sure thing.

Can you post the link to what you added, and tell how you added it? You are just saying ICE32, not mentioning oil.

Dan

redbarron55 said:
I had the problem of not cooling at stopped, but I checked and found that one of the flaps was missing. This let the air bypass the coil and cooling stopped. I replaced the missing flap with tape and the unit worked at a stop and low speeds, but it still took a long time to come on and cool.

It is difficult to tell the difference when you are driving between the delayed cooling and the missing flap.

My car also had the delay and would also stop cooling when the compressor satisfied the demand and backed off the stroke.

I had thought I had fixed the car several times, but my wife was quick to inform me that it was still not cooling right.

I read the previous post about using ICE 32 and ordered a can.

I can report that this has solved my problems (at least for now). The car cools right off and gets cooler faster.
It also will cycle and cool again as the demand is made.

Instead of driving around with the temp setting on the blue dot I had it at 72 F this afternoon. Them was 100F today and Connie said she did not notice the air conditioning, which is a good thing.

One does not want to irritate SHE WHO MUST BE OBEYED!

I would reccommend ICE 32 to lubricate the internals that have to move to change the displacement to correspond the ht e demand.

My computer is broken now, but before the VCDS always read .860 A to the "clutch" which is the PWM signal (as best as I remember the current readout) is MAX. This would indicate to me that the conttrol system is asking all it can of the valve which I understand puts refrigerant pressure on the stroke adjustment mechanism to increase output of coolant as demand increases and decreases.

It would be good to watch the current demand change in response to demand. If it stays max then the compressor is not responding.

My take on this is the added lubricity and possibly detergent action allows the valve to either function as it should or lets the pressure move the swashplate mechanism in response to the demand.

Either way it has worked for me. The A/C is working like new now!

Best regards,

JDB

redbarron55 · Aug 4, 2011

The brand name of the snake oil is ICE32. Google it and check it out.
What I bought was an aerosol can with several ounces of oil and enough R134a to clear the oil out of the can.
napa had old stock of another brand name before ICE32 folks went solely to interdynamics(?) for distribution.
Last night I saw a can of 1 oz. R134A, 1oz. PAG 100, and one oz. ICE32 for $4.95. I have no idea as to how well this would work since what I bought was 3 oz. of ICE32.
I think the sanke oil may help lubricate the stroke changing parts in the compressor and it MAY be a lighter bodied oil that would work into the valve and help it work as well.
I hated to change the valve and lose the charge and replace with an unknown part from China.
I also hated to replace a compressor that was basically working, but was sticky.
Perhaps the PAG oil used in the compressor from Mexico was gumming up with the extreme heat we have in LA (Lower Alabama) and the additive helped modify it and cleaned the system or at least got the gunk in suspension.
Thw ICE32 write up covers compatibility and lubricity of the additive and so far so good.
Remember your mileage may vary and all advice worth price charged.
Proceed at your own risk (whose risk were you working under before?).

Regards,

JDB.

DanG144 · Aug 4, 2011

I think I was the first to post about using ICE32.

It was by accident. I was helping a friend with his delay, and told him I would like to try adding oil. The oil he brought was a non-pressurized bottle of PAG 46 with ICE32 in it. So that is what we added. 2.5 months later his delay is still gone.

http://www.amazon.com/Four-Seasons-69345-ICE-32-Aerosol/dp/B000E0UW0O was this what you bought? Is there any PAG oil at all in it? or just the additive and propulsion refrigerant?

Did you say the other can was PAG 100 oil? That is thicker than the recommended PAG 46.

Did you add it to the low pressure line (and was the compressor off or on) or the high pressure line (with compressor off?).

I am far from a professional in this, and I am trying to learn all I can from anyone I can.

Thanks for posting and replying. I have been trying for a couple of years to help the community address this issue.

redbarron55 · Aug 4, 2011

That is exactly what I bought. Last night I saw the other at Walmart.
I added the oil at the low side as the video from ICE32 said with the engine running.
I opened the valve slowly and held the can inverted to get the oil out since only the small amount of R134A is there to push it out.
ICE32 suggests you buy their installation kit which consists of a can tapper and a 10" hose with quick connect. They say that the 10" hose is necessary to get all of the oil in.
However I used my regular gauge set and held the can pretty high and inverted (again as suggested by the manufacturers.)
I am not a big believer in snake oil, but it ws that or find a valve and replace it ot the compressor. It seems a trip to the dealer will usually run $1200.00 or so and I was willing to gamble.
Right you are that you were the one I first noticed the product ICE32.
It seems to work! I am delighted that this thing is cooling properly.
Personally I think that quite possibly there is more to the problems than a stickey valve. I think the valve may stick, but also the mechanism that changes the swash plate may also take more pressure to be moved.
At any rate I would suggest trying the snake oil. The $26.00 or so plus tax at NAPA was more than worth it.
The Walmart product at $4.95 for an ounce might be enough, I really don't know.
It is likley that a prophylactic application of ICE32 might keep the Delay Devil at bay,
Thanks so much for the hint about this snake oil. My snake is slippery and COOL.

Best regards,

JDB

Delayed Air Conditioning

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