TDI best for me for a daily driver?

I'm looking for a daily driver. What I want is basically a comfortable, reliable, cheap to maintain, high MPG car. I was looking at the usual Honda Civic and then someone suggested a TDI car. My budget is only $6000, but the TDI's seem to be out of my price range but I was still wondering from those who have TDI cars what you think of them.

They just run on diesel correct? I've seen TDI cars that run on diesel/biodiesel/veggie oil? I would like to do more research on this and just wanted to get your perspective on everything.

highly reccomend them. I have had one for 9 years now and love it. Very few maintenance issues and i get 39 mpg in 100% city driving. Took it up to Atlanta one time and got 55mpg on the highway.... Made it from Tampa to atlanta on a little over a half tank..

a high level of participation required

HardHitter said:

I would like to do more research on this and just wanted to get your perspective on everything.

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Hi, Hitter. Welcome to Fred's.

Do you enjoy working on cars? What is your experience with diesel autos? Have you ever owned a VW?

I enjoy working on cars, but if it's my daily driver I am hoping that it won't be down that much. I own a 2005 GTO and I've installed headers, exhaust and a cam in it so I know my way around that engine.

I've never owned a diesel car before nor have I owned a VW which is why I'm trying to get research/information from you guys. I just know that I will be stuck in traffic/driving a lot so I would love to have a daily driver that I don't have to gas up every week (GTO gets 13-15mpg with all my mods) and doesn't have to use premium fuel. It's all about saving costs for me. Diesel is cheaper than unleaded fuel (correct?) so I'll save cost there, as well as not needing to gas up once every week.

The TDI's that I've searched for on craigslist in my area are out of my $6k price range, but there are some around $8-$9k but they have 150k+ miles on them. I don't know what kind of problems I'd run into with that high range of miles and how much longer that engine will last.

Hitter, as you are mechanically inclined, I do not think you will have a problem with a diesel. They do require a little more TLC than most other cars, but when taken care of they will return the favor. Do your homework, learn how a diesel engine works, and ask plenty of questions. I would recommend purchasing a 1999.5 - 2003-4 ALH motor car. These were the most popular, highest mileage producing, and there are plenty of parts available for these cars. The only downside to these cars is that they are getting higher in mileage now and will need more repairs than say a 2006-09. I have heard people love their new 2009 TDIs as well. If you wait til next year, there's even a new TDI coming out called the GTD which looks like a Golf GTI, but uses a diesel engine (veery cool). Whichever TDI you do choose, you will definitely have good times. Getting that first 750 mile tank is an awesome feeling! While diesel is cheap now, even if it goes to $8/gal, you can run on biodiesel or even vegetable oil with the right adaptations. Can you do that with gasoline? The only thing you can do to a gas car is rip out the engine and put an electric motor in there, or a diesel!

I bought my 99.5 with 100k miles 4 months ago for $5700 which I found on Craigslist Chicago. It did need a little work (turbo vane actuator, A/C recharge, fuel/oil, and timing belt) but these are mostly maintenance items. You can say I got lucky with this car, but I am sure there are plenty of other owners out there that are taking care of these as well. If you look hard enough, you'll find something! If you are willing to learn, and to put a little elbow grease into one of these, you will not be disappointed and "see the light" as many of us diesel nerds have experienced.

Any more questions feel free to ask! Good luck! Hope you make the right decision!

Mit freundlichen gruBen!
Ausgezeichnet TDI

If you are doing a lot of stop and go short range driving, I would get a Honda Civic or a Prius. A TDI likes to be driven and is a great car for a long commute.

Why do you suggest the Civic over the TDI?

It depends on the kind of driving you do. Diesels do best out on the open road. If your total yearly mileage is below, say, 18k miles and most of it is in town then diesel may not be the best choice. Mileage takes a substantial hit in stop-n-go traffic. Also, get a manual transmission. Auto's will cost you around 5 mpg. Best mileage TDI's are the ALH motor series (1999.5-2003). You can expect mid to high 40's on the freeway and low 40's in town (maybe slipping into the upper 30's range from time to time). Routine maintenance is easy for the mechanically inclined, sounds like you are. Diesel engines (properly cared for) last forever. I've seen an '01 Golf w/435,000 miles on it and it looked and ran like new. As for reliable, there is a short list of known problems that most have to deal with but... to a savvy owner, they are not that big of a deal, or expensive. If you spend much time commuting on the freeway (non-stop-n-go), then there's nothing like a TDI...

HardHitter said:

Why do you suggest the Civic over the TDI?

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A TDI like to be driven like you stole it. It wants to get nice and warm and run around 3200 rpm all day and all night. I bought my TDI when I was driving 55 miles to work, 50 miles of which was at 80mph (around 3000 rpm). Stop and go is anathema to a TDI.

I suggest a Civic as gasoline engine, spark ignition, do not mind shorter runs as they warm up quickly. A Prius is an even better choice as stop and go is where it excels.

A TDI is not for every driver.

Ok, so according to google maps, my commute is going to be 14.1 miles so 28.1 miles round trip all highway BUT it will be in traffic.

I will be making this commute 5 days a week for sure, possibly 6 days a week. I will also use the car to make drives to the supermarket and friends houses or if I take any long road trips.

So even if the TDI drops to around high 30 MPG, isn't that still better than Civic?

HardHitter said:

Ok, so according to google maps, my commute is going to be 14.1 miles so 28.1 miles round trip all highway BUT it will be in traffic.

I will be making this commute 5 days a week for sure, possibly 6 days a week. I will also use the car to make drives to the supermarket and friends houses or if I take any long road trips.

So even if the TDI drops to around high 30 MPG, isn't that still better than Civic?

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is that a commute?

30mpg in a civic? no more like 38 easy

I call it a commute because even though it's only 14 miles, it's going to take over an hour to get there and will take the same amount to get home.

So combined MPG, do you guys suggest it's worth spending the extra up front cost to buy a TDI or to spend 3-4k for a Civic.

Another thing that I'll be thinking about is fuel cost. Right now unleaded is around $3.00 in California. Diesel I believe I saw was $2.80 at the same station so I will be saving cost over fuel I use too. Someone said that the TDI gets around 750 miles per tank? Someone on the Civic forums say they get around 300+ miles a tank. If I were the "estimate" I'd only have to fill up the TDI around once a month where the Civic would be two or more a month. I don't know how many gallons each car holds, but say both are equal and hold 20 gallons. $56 to fill up the TDI for the month (maybe a couple extra dollars if needed) and $120 for the Civic a month ($60 for each fill up)

Get the Civic. That commute distance is too short for a TDI to do well on. Stop and go traffic kills the TDI advantage too. The civic should actually give you better MPGs in stop and go conditions.

Sorry,

Bill

HardHitter said:

I call it a commute because even though it's only 14 miles, it's going to take over an hour to get there and will take the same amount to get home.

So combined MPG, do you guys suggest it's worth spending the extra up front cost to buy a TDI or to spend 3-4k for a Civic.

Another thing that I'll be thinking about is fuel cost. Right now unleaded is around $3.00 in California. Diesel I believe I saw was $2.80 at the same station so I will be saving cost over fuel I use too.

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There is no car that gets great fuel economy in stop and go traffic, except for the hybrids like the Prius, Insight, and Fusion.

Your commuting mileage, ignoring all other driving you might do, is only about 7,000 miles annually. TDIs are great for people who drive 20k-30k miles a year. I do not think you will be driving enough to make it worthwhile for you to own a TDI.

Also, the current price advantage for diesel is going to disappear in a few months. Refiners are gearing up to produce more diesel, but right now diesel is only cheaper than gas for a few months each year.

HardHitter,
I don't know how an older ALH TDI drives, but do they make civics with turbochargers? Prior to my purchase of my 09 JSW TDI, I was used to lots of horsepower. The first TDI I test drove was a used '06 Jetta TDI sedan. They wanted around $20,000 for it. The test drive went well...very impressive handling and good power for a little engine. I decided to wait for the 09's. I'm really glad I did! I can't see how you could even compare the civic to the TDI. I bought the TDI with the goal of 36 mpg for my average suburban commute of around 18 miles. I was getting around 12mpg on my F150 so tripling my mileage was a huge improvement. (I also got that warm fuzzy feeling from having purchased a great little german engineered, eco freindly, economy minded car.)
.
I'll tell you how my commute goes now....On my way home from work there is a stretch at the end that is 55mph through forest preserves. My new goal is to get the trip mpg over 40 by the time I enter the preserves. Then I treat myself to the wonderous accelleration while I do my best to clean out the turbo vents! I usually end up with around 36 mpg when I hit my driveway but have had a fun trip home!
My point is that it would be really tough to go from a GTO to a civic unless there a high power mods for that civic. Sorry guys...There is more to life than high mpg's.

HardHitter said:

I call it a commute because even though it's only 14 miles, it's going to take over an hour to get there and will take the same amount to get home.

So combined MPG, do you guys suggest it's worth spending the extra up front cost to buy a TDI or to spend 3-4k for a Civic.

Another thing that I'll be thinking about is fuel cost. Right now unleaded is around $3.00 in California. Diesel I believe I saw was $2.80 at the same station so I will be saving cost over fuel I use too. Someone said that the TDI gets around 750 miles per tank? Someone on the Civic forums say they get around 300+ miles a tank. If I were the "estimate" I'd only have to fill up the TDI around once a month where the Civic would be two or more a month. I don't know how many gallons each car holds, but say both are equal and hold 20 gallons. $56 to fill up the TDI for the month (maybe a couple extra dollars if needed) and $120 for the Civic a month ($60 for each fill up)

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Just on what I have read so far, Honda Civic automatic. The Civic is really optimized for the LA LA Land commute and the Nor CA commutes (your case 28 miles per day) are a variant. The TDI is optimized as a great road car. It really does not do a commute like 14 miles one way well, but if you work within its parameters, you might not get much less than 48-52 mpg.

We own a 04 Civic 4 spd automatic (87,000 miles), 03 VW TDI 5 spd manual (118,000 miles) side by side. So feel free to ask away. The daily commute is 54 miles R/T. Commute mileage is 38-42 mpg, 48-52 mpg and unrelated, but a comparison is 39-45 mpg, 09 Jetta TDI, DSG. You can calculate the price per mile driven (fuel) X what you do in a years time for all three. In your case, the $ differences are a nit.

PalosParked said:

HardHitter,
I don't know how an older ALH TDI drives, but do they make civics with turbochargers? Prior to my purchase of my 09 JSW TDI, I was used to lots of horsepower. The first TDI I test drove was a used '06 Jetta TDI sedan. They wanted around $20,000 for it. The test drive went well...very impressive handling and good power for a little engine. I decided to wait for the 09's. I'm really glad I did! I can't see how you could even compare the civic to the TDI. I bought the TDI with the goal of 36 mpg for my average suburban commute of around 18 miles. I was getting around 12mpg on my F150 so tripling my mileage was a huge improvement. (I also got that warm fuzzy feeling from having purchased a great little german engineered, eco freindly, economy minded car.)
.
I'll tell you how my commute goes now....On my way home from work there is a stretch at the end that is 55mph through forest preserves. My new goal is to get the trip mpg over 40 by the time I enter the preserves. Then I treat myself to the wonderous accelleration while I do my best to clean out the turbo vents! I usually end up with around 36 mpg when I hit my driveway but have had a fun trip home!
My point is that it would be really tough to go from a GTO to a civic unless there a high power mods for that civic. Sorry guys...There is more to life than high mpg's.

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Did you read the OPs' requirements? A short, stop and go commute is the opposite of what the TDI is good at. TDIs are not cheap to maintain either..... Hard to beat the comfort, but cheap they ain't. I think the OP will be lucky to get low 30s judging by his commute description. The limited budget nearly guarantees that he is gonna get a car that needs a whole lot of work just to keep it on the road. I love my TDIs, but they are not the right car for every situation.

Bill

Hardhitter said:

What I want is basically a comfortable, reliable, cheap to maintain, high MPG car.

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Maybe I didn't post this in my original post, but this will be my daily driver and I will have my high HP car in the garage. My GTO pushes 423 to the wheels and it's plenty of fun/comfort for me right now. It has headers/cam and gets 14-16mpg if I'm lucky. I average 220 miles on my tank and it costs me $50+ to fill up the tank since I need to use premium, let alone I have to fill it up once a week, so that's $200+ a month on gas.

The daily driver I'm going to be using is just for that, commute. I like light turbo'd cars as I had a 94 RX7 and I loved that car. I've driven my friends Biturbo S4 and I liked it too so maybe the TDI is best for me?

Yes you guys are saying the TDI doesn't reach it's "max potential" as far as MPG on short drives, but it still gets 700+ miles a tank and is still 35-40mpg which is GREAT compared to what I'm used to. Comparing it to the Civic, the Jetta or Golf will also have more "features" than the Civic, leather, heated seats, etc etc.

Is diesel going to surpas the price of unleaded fuel in the future? I do not mind paying the same price as gas if I'm getting 700+ miles a tank. How much does it cost you guys to fill your tank and how many gallons are a tank?

Most of the cars I've found already have biodiesel/veggie oil conversion. I don't know much, but how does that work out? Where do you get veggie oil from? Are you able to run a mix of diesel and veggie oil? etc etc. I really think a TDI is best for me and what I want (high mpg, only need to gas up once or twice if needed a month)

Curious Chris said:

If you are doing a lot of stop and go short range driving, I would get a Honda Civic or a Prius. A TDI likes to be driven and is a great car for a long commute.

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x2....

40X40 said:

Did you read the OPs' requirements? A short, stop and go commute is the opposite of what the TDI is good at. TDIs are not cheap to maintain either..... Hard to beat the comfort, but cheap they ain't. I think the OP will be lucky to get low 30s judging by his commute description. The limited budget nearly guarantees that he is gonna get a car that needs a whole lot of work just to keep it on the road. I love my TDIs, but they are not the right car for every situation.

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Bill.....Yes , you're correct if Hardhitter just needs a commute car, totally stop and go....but keep the GTO for pleasure then if you can.

Hardhitter said:

Is diesel going to surpas the price of unleaded fuel in the future? I do not mind paying the same price as gas if I'm getting 700+ miles a tank. How much does it cost you guys to fill your tank and how many gallons are a tank?

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My 'tanks' are about 14.5 gallons in my 2006 MK5 cars. The older cars can hold 17 or 17.5 (I think) gallons. You CAN get 700 mile tanks but not at the MPG rate you will realistically be getting. You will typically only get mileage figures like that on a trip spanning the better part of a tank(or farther).

17 gallons X 30 MPG = 510 miles (short commute)
17 gallons X 45 MPG = 765 miles (long day trip)

Why not get together with a TDIclub member near you and ride with them in their car on your route and see what mileage can be actually had??

Make sure the traffic conditions are realistic as they can have a great influence on your daily mileage. ( I can get from 45 to just under 30 ON THE SAME COMMUTE depending on traffic and weather) My commute is 27 miles one way, any shorter would result it a lesser average MPG for me.

HTH

Bill

PS, I think some Passat? wagons can have tanks around 20 gallons or a little bigger, but they are hard to find in good, affordable condition. Someone will chime in with details..

If your commute is mostly stop and go, slow speed, then a hybrid is what you are really looking at. An electric motor is torque like a diesel, except its set even lower, like a 1 rpm. The TDI's best torque band is about 1,800 to 2,200 I think. Someone feel free to correct me.

As far as hybrids go. There is the Toyota Prius and Camary (I think), as well as Honda Insights old and new body styles, and hybrid civics.

Ford' also got the Escape, Saturn gots an SUV... and Chevy is getting ready to release the Volt.

I love my TDI so far, I've had it for almost a week, but stop and go is not where the fun driving part is. A new prius gets 51mpg in the city, stop and go. If you don't want to fill up a tank that is the way to go.

If you decide to go with a TDI there are things to make sure have been done. Timing belt, Throttle body cleaning, AC fans working.

HH - I expect my commute to work is similar to yours.

Here is my limited *Fuel Log data
Miles Per Gallon: 33.27
Cost Per Mile: $0.08
Total Cost: $61.39
Total Miles: 808.7

That's two fill-ups, so call it 33 MPG @ 400 miles a tank. I think that beats the pants off of your GTO, from an economy perspective anyway. And the TDI is still fun to drive (which I think you'd really appreciate).

You seem to be a mechanically inclined dude, I get the feeling you could keep a TDI on the road.

*Gotta love the iPhone - "there's an App for that..."

40X40 said:

Did you read the OPs' requirements? A short, stop and go commute is the opposite of what the TDI is good at. TDIs are not cheap to maintain either..... Hard to beat the comfort, but cheap they ain't. I think the OP will be lucky to get low 30s judging by his commute description. The limited budget nearly guarantees that he is gonna get a car that needs a whole lot of work just to keep it on the road. I love my TDIs, but they are not the right car for every situation.

Bill

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BS.

Since new:

$900 for clutch and Single Mass Flywheel
$50 to fix the busted dog ear motor mount locking point on my block
10 oil changes @ $55 ea = $550
12 fuel filters @ $30ea = $360
Brakes & rotors (rear) = $300

Over 90,000 miles that is $2,160 in repairs/upkeep.

So I don't buy that a TDI isn't cheaper to maintin.

This was over 2.5 years of driving, no less.

My Escalade I'm driving as the van gough block fix is being put on the car has consumed 2,700 gallons of gasoline over 42,000 logged miles [lifetime average is 15.1mpg] ... it needs $60 in oil changes every 3,500 miles... you tell me that's cheaper to maintain.

As for a Honda, no civic that gets the economy you cite is going to fit my frame... so... that is out of the question.

I'd strongly suggest you get a 5-speed.

BTW my car makes 126HP/wheel (factory is 100HP/crank). Its not stock, I consider what I've replaced/broken on the car to be extreme minimal given I have abused it quite a bit.

/has a 2006
/gets 35mpg running 65mph in 3rd gear for 200 miles
/never gotten less than 38mpg in city driving conditions over 1.5 years of delivering flowers in traffic
/has a manual transmission
/was buying biodiesel at 3.50 for the first two years (64,000 miles or so) of use and was running at less than 9-cents per mile factoring in oil, oil filter and fuel filter changes

Also I'd avoid any TDI that has a WVO/Grease/Straight veggie oil kit. You might be able to make it work but generally this is an ill fated idea for a car with high pressure injection. Biodiesel needs no conversion, it's just another diesel fuel. No different than mixing a few gallons of kersoene.

For that matter a diesel could run on wasted motor oil from your GTO, for how long is unknown, I know Dodge truck owners who dump their 55 gallon barrel of collected Automatic Transmission Fluid and Waste Motor Oil out of the barrels into a 50-gallon secondary fuel tank in their bed, add diesel, kerosene, and drive on it. They also can afford to rebuild their fuel injection pump, or replaced a blown/clogged injector.

if you want to save money on the cost of fuel, you're going to make up for it in labor later (as someone who has a 400HP car you should we well aware of that trade off).

If you want reliable, keep sticking regular diesel into the tank, buy a car with a manual with less than 180k miles, and don't chip it. There is no reason you can't get 500-600 miles out of an ALH in your conditions. Just be sure to block off the EGR and take it out for a good romping on the weekends or at the track along side your GTO.

HH, have you taken a test drive of some TDI's yet? Do a comparison of a 99.5-03 car, an 04-06/7, and a new TDI and see what you like. My commute is currently about 25 miles a day, but I do go up to Milwaukee about once a week and take long road trips often. My combined mileage is about 43 city driving, and about 47-50 all highway. No mods on my car, just bone stock. Holds about 15.5 gallons if you're lucky. My bro has an 03 Civic that I like to give him hell about, yet he gets about 38mpg on the highway (I use Mobil1 Advanced fuel economy, air up his tires to 90% of max psi, and taught him how to drive right! ) He also only gets about 350 miles per tank if he's lucky!

Lets face it, you're an enthusiast. You will NOT be happy with a civic going from a GTO! You're not going to get 400hp out of a TDI without extreme engine modifications. Simply put if you buy a TDI you will be happy. There are costs of operating a car regardless wether you have a Honda or a VW, you just have to be alert and in-tune with your car and give it the TLC that you give to your GTO. People who own Hondas generally skip out on maintenance and don't really care about the upkeep of their vehicle (My girlfriend and her whole friggin family!!!! GRRR!!!). They think, oh I have a Honda, so that means it will run forever. I had an 84 Olds Delta 88 and that POS ran forever, even when I tried to kill it!! The key is maintenance and a lot of homework. Don't be afraid to get your hands dirty (diesel oil is like octopus ink), drive it like you stole it, and it won't be long until you're hooked...

The biodezl/veggie thing. Don't mention it too much on the forums (PM /email people for questions and information), as dino diesel has a road tax and is "legal". Yes you can convert your diesel to veggie or run on bio, but there are even more precautions and constant studies and trials are being performed for longevity and wear tolerances. If you want to run pretty much anything in a diesel (including gypsy tears), buy an old Mercedes diesel, those things are bomb proof!

Sorry for my rambling, but guys you should encourage a fellow gearhead to take the plunge. Its literally an adventure as any other car is, yes you will have to spend some money on maintenance and upkeep, but if you want a car that can surpass 300k miles and then some while giving you excellent mileage, get a TDI! It is a cult following that is growing in America, and needs to keep growing and informing more ignorant people out there that there are alternatives to gasoline / gasoline-electric vehicles. Hope this gives you the right info you were looking for!

On the other hand if you buy a civic and tear out the motor and put in a full electric powertrain, I fully support that! As long as it does 10sec 1/4mi!

HardHitter said:

I call it a commute because even though it's only 14 miles, it's going to take over an hour to get there and will take the same amount to get home.

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A scooter or small-displacement motorcycle would be a quicker and cheaper commuter vehicle.

HardHitter said:

I call it a commute because even though it's only 14 miles, it's going to take over an hour to get there and will take the same amount to get home.

So combined MPG, do you guys suggest it's worth spending the extra up front cost to buy a TDI or to spend 3-4k for a Civic.

Another thing that I'll be thinking about is fuel cost. Right now unleaded is around $3.00 in California. Diesel I believe I saw was $2.80 at the same station so I will be saving cost over fuel I use too. Someone said that the TDI gets around 750 miles per tank? Someone on the Civic forums say they get around 300+ miles a tank. If I were the "estimate" I'd only have to fill up the TDI around once a month where the Civic would be two or more a month. I don't know how many gallons each car holds, but say both are equal and hold 20 gallons. $56 to fill up the TDI for the month (maybe a couple extra dollars if needed) and $120 for the Civic a month ($60 for each fill up)

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Make sure you avoid the automatics if you do chose the TDI, they are known to fail and extremely expensive to replace $5-8K. I would also recommend a Japanese 4cyl. for stop and go commuting. Reason being if its a 2nd car for commuting do you really want to be screwing with it all the time? Being in San Jose i would actually purchase a motorcycle as you can ride the center line through traffic get good mpg and the weather is usually mild.

Fuel costs fluctuate too much to purchase a car based on the pump price, the diesel prices will be higher in the winter and cheaper in the summer is a general rule with Gas being the opposite.

Good call! I didn't realize you were on the west coast! I lived in LA for a year and I wish I had my bike out there. Chicago isn't the most forgiving to bikers with weather and the roads (not to mention the idiots driving here). My 84 Harley Sportster (paid $3500 for it) gets 45mpg around town and costs about $6 to fill up on premium ($3/gal)...if I had nice CA weather, I would barely drive the TDI (forgive me guys). Most all new bikes are fuel injected, so there is little that needs upkeep besides oil changes and brakes. Buy a good helmet and skins and for $6,000 you can buy a fairly nice bike!

HardHitter said:

cheap to maintain

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That disqualifies the TDI. It's not cheap, and you will be wrenching it regularly to keep it going. Get something else, since money matters for you.