How to design a turbo for high altitudes?

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
Originally posted by mickey:
Boundless: FYI, it's impossible to "over-speed" a turbo at high altitude, unless you fool with the MAP sensor signal. The ECU contains a barometric pressure sensor. It reduces boost at high altitude to prevent over-revving. No matter your altitude, the wheel will be operating in the "fat" part of the map. Unless, as I said, you fool with something to force it to spin faster.

Chipping the engine does increase boost by about 2 psi, but that's not nearly enough to over-rev the turbo. If the ECU sees that manifold pressure is exceeding a safe level for the altitude, it releases all the vacuum from the VNT hose and dumps ALL the boost. It also cuts fuelling, just to make doubly sure. It's simply not possible to get the stock turbo to over-rev, even with a chip and the VNT mechanism cranked to the mechanical limit.

The failures are happening at low engine rpms because that's when there is the most torque on the shaft.

Most of your theories are valid enough, but not applicable to the real world. These failures happen because the shafts fatigue. The stock VNT-15 turbo has a pathetically thin little shaft, and it's prone to failure under torque. That's all there is to it.

-mickey
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think folks are questioning the derating of the control system at altitude and if it is derated enough to protect the turbos from overspeeding. Plus, chipping adds boost to make RPMs even higher.

In order for a compressor to surge, it needs to be producing a high level of boost (high PR). This requires high RPMs, moreso with less dense air at altitude. Oh yeah mickey, I forgot, you say all these high altitude failures are definitely not due to surge.

So mickey, you've ruled out surge & over speed as possible reasons for these alleged fatigue failures.

1. What then is your explaination for the cause of the fatigue?

2. What are the loads and forces causing the stresses that cause the fatigue?

If it ain't surge or overspeed, what is it?

Oh yeah, for a very good tutorial, check out the thread Davin started on surge and altitude. Surge Tutorial
 

TDIMeister

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In Ding's case, jodging from his description, I'd hazard a guess he overspun the sh!t out of that turbo, and it didn't die from surge
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Actually Boundless, you are out of bounds here once again.

Surge does not require high PR ratios, it occurs at directly the opposite. Low PR ratios.

You'd think with a 50-50 chance of getting it right, you would have at least gotten it right once by now but you are still batting 0.000. Lots and lots of room left for improvement though!
 

GoFaster

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Skypup, I have to correct you a little bit here. Surge occurs in the LOW FLOW operating region, at pressure ratios that may not necessarily be near the maximum but are too high for whatever flow rate is going through the turbo at the time. Too much boost at too low flow is the problem. It is rather similar to trying to fly an airplane too slowly with too much load on the wings.

hate to bust the bubble that certain people have, but the earlier post by Boundless is pretty much the way I see it, too, so quit slagging him for no reason.

Check out the other current post and look at the graph.
 
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SkyPup

Guest
I agree 100%, surge happens only at low flow low PR, not at the top of the map as previously indicated, where the high PR ratios are.
 

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
Originally posted by SkyPup:
Actually Boundless, you are out of bounds here once again.

Surge does not require high PR ratios, it occurs at directly the opposite. Low PR ratios.

You'd think with a 50-50 chance of getting it right, you would have at least gotten it right once by now but you are still batting 0.000. Lots and lots of room left for improvement though!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 
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SkyPup

Guest
So which is it Boundless, choke, surge, overspeed, or just plain lack of oil? You tell us.....
 

GoFaster

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There is more than one potential failure mode for these particular turbochargers (just as there is more than one potential failure mode for anything but the simplest mechanical or electrical device).

Just because one person breaks something one way doesn't mean the next person won't find a way to break it some other way!

If you look into the history of Ding's vehicle I think that one qualifies as a "he broke it" rather than an "it broke" ...
 

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
Originally posted by SkyPup:
So which is it Boundless, choke, surge, overspeed, or just plain lack of oil? You tell us.....
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, I'm waiting for mickey to tell us. He's ruled out overspeed & surge as the cause. These were two of my top suspects. I'm waiting for mickey to explain the cause of the alleged fatigue that snaps the shafts.

I'm waiting....
 

Davin

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Originally posted by mickey:
Most of your theories are valid enough, but not applicable to the real world. These failures happen because the shafts fatigue. The stock VNT-15 turbo has a pathetically thin little shaft, and it's prone to failure under torque. That's all there is to it.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But, what is the source of this torque?! Saying "torque breaks the shaft" is like saying "concrete is heavy". Everyone knows that in order to break something, you have to load it. Finding out the source of those loads is the question. That's the whole point of the conversation. And what is the failure mode? Exceeding yield stress and fatigue failure are COMPLETELY different modes of failure.

mickey, do you have photos of the pieces from your failed turbo? Especially the shaft? I'd be interested in seeing them if you do.

Thanks,

-davin
 

Davin

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Originally posted by Ted_Grozier:

One chip-tuner in particular seems to aggressively increase fueling in the 1,500-2,000 rpm range, in an effort to get the turbo on boost quickly for maximum torque. This is often accompanied by a black sooty "burp."
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Interesting. So more fuel=more exhaust energy to accelerate the turbine. Look at the plots I posted in my surge thread . One of the reasons that the actual boost is slow to respond in the low-RPM range is the lack of exhaust energy to spool the turbo up. That's why the actual boost hugs the surge line instead of going full-tilt into the surge region where the desired boost is.

Add more exhaust energy to the equation, and the actual boost line is going to get closer to the desired boost line. FYI, desired boost hits 2.0 PR at around 1950 RPM at WOT (ambient pressure=979 mbar).

-davin
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Turbochargers at High Altitude
The Volkswagen TDI engine with it's Garrett Turbocharger is a work of art in more ways than one. It's turbocharger is able to operate under a multitude of conditions ranging from sea level to two miles high and from desert to blizzard conditions. All of these various conditions cause drastic changes in air density caused by differing ambient temperatures and atomspheric pressures. Volkswagen designed this engine to function efficiently under these difficult conditions and this is one of the reasons it is one of the most advanced passenger car motors in the world with over 2 million units in operation.

Turbocharger design and matching is relatively straightforward for most industrial and marine applications due to the limited speed and load ranges required. Matching a turbocharger to an automotive application is much more difficult due to the wide speeds and load variations encountered.

The easiest engine to design a diesel turbocharger for is a stationary one such as for a power plant or in a ship at sea level, its altitude is known and it is selected to operate at a constant rpm under a constant load.

The next most easiest diesel engine for design a turbocharger for is a truck in a mobile application. The compressor is selected to operate under a mostly constant load and at a specific rpm at normal altitudes and normal ambient temperatures. The turbocharger is designed to match the normal operating environment of the truck with sufficient margins designed for surge protection, turbine inlet temperature, turbo speed and boost levels.

Turbocharger operation under changing ambient conditions (extreme barometric pressure and/or temperature environments) introduces additional complications for the manufacturer of both the turbocharger and the engine. Foremost is a reduction of the surge margin (the left hand portion of the compressor map) while still offering partial compensation for reduced mass air inlet density at higher altitude levels. As air density and air mass flow rate are reduced, the turbine inlet temperature will rise due to the richer air-fuel mixture resulting. This means that the ratio of compressor to turbine pressure ratios will increase. This pressure ratio increase offsets the reduction in air inlet density at higher altitudes in a turbocharged diesel engine. Also, as the ambient temperature falls, the expansion ratio of the turbine increases, raising the compressor ratio as long as the turbine inlet pressure does not fall at the same rate as the ambient pressure. An increase in ambient temperature has an undesirable effect on the turbine to compressor energy balance to the effect that the turbine will amplify this effect to a change in air flow rate. Low ambient temperatures reduce the required compressor power, so boost rises, which may result in compressor surge.

Selection of a turbocharger compressor wheel is mostly a matter of ensuring a sufficient surge margin while maintaining that the engines operation at both maximum torque and maximum power occur
at reasonable compressor speeds and efficiencies. A good compressor wheel with the correct trim will function clear of the surge line and lie in an area of high operational efficiency.

Wide variations in ambient conditions of a turbocharged diesel engine can lead to problems due to compressor surge, excessive cylinder pressures, turbine inlet temperatures, turbocharger speed, and smoke emissions. Here a couple of examples:

If air mass flow rate and compressor pressure ratio changes, movement across the operation map of the compressor will be accompanied by changes in efficiency. It follows that a similar engine at sea-level will not necessarily perform comparatively at high altitudes. Detailed and rigorous turbine and compressor maps are required to predict the effect of high altitudes and low temperatures on turbochargers in contrast to sea-level operation. A simpler approach is to simply compare the turbocharged engines operation at a constant altitude in either very hot or very cold conditions as this approach emulates the effects of high altitude operation.

At high ambient temperature, the limiting factor in the operation of a turbocharged diesel engine is smoke emission, due to the reduced air flow. The second and third limiting factors are turbine inlet and exhaust valve temperatures or the thermal loading of the engine in its entirety. Conversely, at low ambient temperatures, compressor surge (due to a very high pressure ratio) or maximum cylinder pressure will be the limiting factor. The limitation of the turbocharged diesel engine will be to what extent fueling must be reduced to permit reliable operation or excess smoke emission. Compared to a naturally aspirated diesel engine, the turbocharged diesel engine offers partial compensation of the air inlet density reduction at altitude for the above mentioned factors and therefore is not affected to the extent that a naturally aspirated engine is.

The effect of high altitude on a turbocharged diesel at full power shows that although the absolute inlet manifold pressure reduces with high altitude, the fall-off is slower than that of ambient temperature. Turbocharger speed increases due to the increase in turbine inlet temperature and expansion ratio up to a point. This point is limited by the thermal limits and the maximum permissible turbocharger speed, especially the latter. The movement toward surge on the compressor map will be greatest for a non-intercooled engine, since the post boost air mass density will be reduced considerably due to higher temperatures.

If a turbocharged diesel engine is designed for operation at sea-level and moved to higher altitudes without being rematched for operation at higher levels, then initially smoke emission, then turbocharger speed, and then inlet temperatures will be the factors governing the reduction in fuel input.

The problem of overspeeding the turbocharger and coping with excessively high cylinder pressures becomes more prominent when the turbocharged diesel engines operates over a very wide speed range (1,000 to 5,000 rpm instead of 1,000 to 2,200 rpm) as is the
case in the Volkswagen TDI passenger car. This has been taken into effect in the A3 TDI's Garrett GT15 turbo by the use of wastegate to shunt part of the exhaust gas flow past the turbine and simultaneously increase the exhaust flow area to prevent build up of exhaust back pressure into the cylinders. This reduces both turbine work and effective compressor boost pressures, while maintaining good engine power and fuel economy without deterioration at higher rpm operation.

With the development of the Garrett VNT15 variable nozzle turbocharger for the Volkswagen TDI turbodiesel engine many of these concerns have been addressed and resolved. However this could not have been completed without the electronic control using modern computerized software alogrithims to keep the turbine and compressor operating in unison. In fact the Garrett VNT turbos were first designed and created over 15 years ago, however now they are first being utilized in modern passenger car turbodiesels specifically due to the simultaneous development of the computer hardware and software to allow the control of these powerful turbochargers under a wide variety of applications. The development of the BOSCH VE VP 37 rotary distributor microprocessor fuel injection pump and its associated equipment also has allowed additional freedom in the fuel delivery over the speed range of the engine to match the VNT turbocharger operation. The VNT's turbocharger operation has been closely linked with the entire fuel system and must maintain this match throughout its entire operation by maintaining optimum fuel injection rates, extremely high fuel pressure rates, extremely precise nozzle sizes, and specific combustion chamber swirl. The factor that is the most restrictive when trying to achieve a desirable torque characteristic with the VNT turbo is the low speed smoke limit. This should be no big surprise since it is normal for boost pressure to rise with engine speed as a result of the exhaust flow rate increase of the turbine. The smoke limit is caused by insufficient boost pressure, and hence air flow, at low engine speeds. In order that the TDI engine is to make an effective torque curve, the fuel delivery (per cycle) is held relativley constant over the speed range while the VNT successfully raises the boost effectively at very low engine speeds. This is achieved by the increased A/R ratio that is a function of the nozzle opening on the VNT turbine inlet so that the thermodynamic availability of exhaust energy delivered to the turbine, ie its specific available energy, has been increased at both low speed and high speed operation. By keeping the fuel delivery relatively unchanged while the turbine energy is increasing and boost pressure is increasing, it weakens the air-fuel ratio and reduces low speed smoke. This has been the dream of turbocharger engineers for decades! Low exhaust smoke, low fuel consumption, and high BMEP are ideal.

Now what does all this mean to us as VW TDI performance addicts? First, a super clean high flow air filter is absolutely essential to keep the turbocharger operating in its maximum effective rate zone on the compressor map. As much as a 20% decrease in air mass flow into the air intake due to an air filter restriction, especially at higher altitudes, would push the compressor towards the surge line and decrease its efficency tremendously. A clean
high flow air filter is a must. A Garrett VNT15 turbocharger on a Volkswagen TDI engine simply cannot tolerate a dirty air filter or otherwise compromised air intake mass.

Second, due to the very effective air-air intercooler that is standard on the VW TDI, a reduction in compressor post-boost air temperature down to 30-40 degrees F. above ambient is outstanding. This intercooler is highly effective in reducing the intake air temp and increasing the intake air density, while at the same time reducing peak combustion chamber temperatures, exhaust valve temperatures, and exhaust gas temperatures. Volkswagen not only did an excellent job designing this air-air turbocharger intercooler for high performance and long engine life, it also decreases NOx production about 30% as well. Only when the turbocharger boost level is raised above the OEM levels is this intercooler capacity diminished. While a boost from OEM 13 PSI to about 16 PSI using a Wetterauer Software EPROM is acceptable at all temperatures and altitudes, a boost above the 16 PSI level begins to raise the compressor air temperature levels straining the capacity of the OEM intercooler. In fact, an intercooler contaminated with oil and sludge build-up from lack of cleaning can easily decrease the efficency of the TDI's OEM intercooler 40-50% with a resultant rise in intake air temperature, lowered fuel economy, higher engine temperatures, and long term thermal stress on the entire engine, all NOT GOOD. In addition, torque and horsepower levels are directly diminished as well.

Third, fuel quality becomes even more essential for good reliable operation at higher levels of either performance or altitude. Therefore, a 50 cetane fuel level should be utilized as a minimum in order to effectively reduce combustion lag, combustion chamber pressure peaks, low speed smoke limits, and operational thermal stress on the VW TDI turbodiesel engine under load.

Fourth, the addition of a Techtonics Tuning turbo exhaust system will increase the turbocharger boost pressure by increasing the exhaust mass air flow and reducing backpressure into the combustion chamber for more effective high rpm operation. Stronger torque levels at lower rpms are due to more heat and air mass passing through the turbine.

The take home message is that the Garrett VNT15 turbine and compressor do an outstanding job under a wide variety of conditions attendent on the fact that the ECU controls the fuel and turbo pressure levels according to ambient temperatures and altitudes up to 10,000 feet via internal MAF fuel maps, MAP boost pressure maps, IAT intake air temperature maps, and ambient barometric determinations . The higher you are above sea level, the more difficult it is to produce the same level of work, with increase attendant risks to asking for higher performance. Pay attention to the four main restrictions to TDI turbo power at altitude listed above to keep ahead of the game and the competition!
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Originally posted by mickey:
Boundless: FYI, it's impossible to "over-speed" a turbo at high altitude, unless you fool with the MAP sensor signal. The ECU contains a barometric pressure sensor. It reduces boost at high altitude to prevent over-revving. No matter your altitude, the wheel will be operating in the "fat" part of the map. Unless, as I said, you fool with something to force it to spin faster.

Chipping the engine does increase boost by about 2 psi, but that's not nearly enough to over-rev the turbo. If the ECU sees that manifold pressure is exceeding a safe level for the altitude, it releases all the vacuum from the VNT hose and dumps ALL the boost. It also cuts fuelling, just to make doubly sure. It's simply not possible to get the stock turbo to over-rev, even with a chip and the VNT mechanism cranked to the mechanical limit.

The failures are happening at low engine rpms because that's when there is the most torque on the shaft.

Most of your theories are valid enough, but not applicable to the real world. These failures happen because the shafts fatigue. The stock VNT-15 turbo has a pathetically thin little shaft, and it's prone to failure under torque. That's all there is to it.

-mickey
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In conclusion, mickey says it is not overspeed, not surge, but torque that snaps the shafts in these "start from stop light" turbo failures.

GoFaster, I agree with you on Ding's turbo.
 
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SkyPup

Guest
SkyPup quotes himself:

" A simpler approach is to simply compare the turbocharged engines operation at a constant altitude in either very hot or very cold conditions as this approach emulates the effects of high altitude operation."

So we are seeing a tremendous increase in TDI meltdowns in the desert SouthWest during the winter now, the combination of no humidity, dry, dust contaminated air filters, and high altitudes is just too much for these fragile helpless TDI engines to keep it together.

VWOA warranty service throughout the desert SouthWest and the Northwesten Rocky mountain states must have seen a tremendous increase in blown TDIs due the extremely harsh climactic conditions which confront these turbodiesels. The lack of quality diesel fuel, use of wrong oil, infrequent extended oil changes, severe climactic temperatures, driver ignorance, and lack of common sense have all led to thousands of stranded TDI motorists with blown engines all over the place.
 

Boundless

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Jan 3, 2001
Originally posted by SkyPup:
SkyPup quotes himself:

" A simpler approach is to simply compare the turbocharged engines operation at a constant altitude in either very hot or very cold conditions as this approach emulates the effects of high altitude operation."

So we are seeing a tremendous increase in TDI meltdowns in the desert SouthWest during the winter now, the combination of no humidity, dry, dust contaminated air filters, and high altitudes is just too much for these fragile helpless TDI engines to keep it together.

VWOA warranty service throughout the desert SouthWest and the Northwesten Rocky mountain states must have seen a tremendous increase in blown TDIs due the extremely harsh climactic conditions which confront these turbodiesels. The lack of quality diesel fuel, use of wrong oil, infrequent extended oil changes, severe climactic temperatures, driver ignorance, and lack of common sense have all led to thousands of stranded TDI motorists with blown engines all over the place.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So the TDIs in the US & Canada that are experiencing this grave failure rate apparently are different then the millions TDIs in Europe that are traveling at 10,000 ft altitude in the Alps with zero altitude-attributable failures, as in your other post? And this of course, proves that your other post about TDIs at 10,000 ft altitudes in the Alps and throughout Europe was completely useless.

BTW, I like your quote above, it proves again what we knew all along: You don't get it.

Very hot or very cold temperatures emulates high altitude? SkyPup, you don't get it.
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Boundless, apparently you don't "have" it, so you can't possibly "get" it.


Why don't you just ask Ding to send you his air filter so that you can examine it closely and figure out why his turbo failed.

SkyPup quotes himself again:

"As much as a 20% decrease in air mass flow into the air intake due to an air filter restriction, especially at higher altitudes, would push the compressor towards the surge line and decrease its efficency tremendously."

HOLY MACKERAL, THIS IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN "CHIP TUNING"


Get it now Boundless?
 

Boundless

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Originally posted by SkyPup:
Boundless, apparently you don't "have" it, so you can't possibly "get" it.


Why don't you just ask Ding to send you his air filter so that you can examine it closely and figure out why his turbo failed. SkyPup, Ding isn't in the desert southwest you are so concerned about where the temperature emulates high altitude. hehehe....


SkyPup quotes himself again:

"As much as a 20% decrease in air mass flow into the air intake due to an air filter restriction, especially at higher altitudes, would push the compressor towards the surge line and decrease its efficency tremendously."

HOLY MACKERAL, THIS IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN "CHIP TUNING"


Get it now Boundless?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stay focused SkyPup, well, I mean get a grip SkyPup. We are talking about a different failure mode than Ding's.

Ding's turbo failure is different then Aaron's. We are concerned with the examination of Aaron's turbo and the surrounding conditions. Like GoFaster said, Ding "broke it", more so than "it broke."

From Ding:

My stock turbo shaft snapped at about 21PSI when driving wide open in high RPM's.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Aaron's conditions are very different, therefore we are not concerned with Ding's turbo at this time, although it would be great to see the shaft and what ever is left after letting go at WOT, 21 PSI and high rpm!! Aaron's turbo failed under the same circumstances as many others at high altitude and that is what the rest of us are discussing with the goal of determining the root cause(s). Ding's doesn't fit the profile.

SkyPup, your quotes were worthless when you first posted them and haven't increased in value. Stop quoting yourself.

SkyPup, are you saying Ding's failure was surge at WOT, 21 PSI and high RPM? Look at the compressor map.... You still don't understand the relationship between flow, PR & surge. What kind of flow is there at high RPM and where does that end up on the compressor map? Far away from surge. Would somebody show SkyPup how to read the compressor map, please?

SkyPup, as usual, you are the weakest link, good-bye!
 

aaron

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In my car
TDI
asbarrus
Hi everybody,

I posted this original thread right before the crash. When the club came back up, I looked for this thread and couldn't find it, and supposed that it had been lost. Therefore I haven't followed up.

I'm excited to see so much response! I will certainly be following the thread now and attempt to include as many facts as possible.

First of all, this did occur coming off of idle, pointed uphill. I probably gave it about 75% throttle, letting the clutch out fully by around 1300 RPMs, which is my usual engine speed for starting.

At this point the turbo was basically inoperative because of low RPMs. Once the clutch was fully released and the RPMs reached around 2000, the turbo began to spin up. I remained around 75% throttle, perhaps a hair more, but still shy of full throttle. You know that point on the pedal where the turbo first "turns on"? That's where I was.

I felt the boost push from around 2000 to 3000 in first gear, then it almost felt like my clutch blew - that was my first thought. The engine completely lost all power, and made a high-pitched wirring. I pushed the clutch to the floor, let it idle, and the motor sounded like normal. I put it in 2nd gear, which netted around 1300 RPMS, and applied about 10% throttle, just enough to maintain my very low speed.

Everything seemed normal, and the clutch had indeed engaged successfully, so I pushed the pedal a bit more. As soon as the engine reached an RPM range where the turbo would begin spooling (around 1500), it made the weird whirring sound again, and began to spew smoke. I still wasn't too worried - the failed MAF was just like this, except for the weird sound.

So I idled it at around 1300 RPMs for another mile, then pushed in the clutch to stop on the side of the road and call for help. The RPMS rose to 2200, and the motor clattered. Panicked, I switched the key off, and the motor quit. I went to call for help. When I got back to my car, there was a puddle of oil underneath, and that's when I realized there was big trouble.

To answer other possible questions:

I don't actually know the difference between the turbine and the wheel. Looked like the "wheel" part to me. It's the part on the end of the shaft with the reverse threaded nut on the end.

The shaft was broken, and it was not a clean break - kinda like a twist and bend break. There were several other scratches on the shaft too - not just one spot.

The housing and wheel were disintegrated to the point that I could not tell where some of the parts came from.

I will post pictures, and send my parts to boundless for further review too.

I'll check back in soon!

Aaron
 
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SkyPup

Guest
Originally posted by SkyPup:
Boundless, apparently you don't "have" it, so you can't possibly "get" it.


Why don't you just ask Ding to send you his air filter so that you can examine it closely and figure out why his turbo failed.

SkyPup quotes himself again:

"As much as a 20% decrease in air mass flow into the air intake due to an air filter restriction, especially at higher altitudes, would push the compressor towards the surge line and decrease its efficency tremendously."

Be sure to wrap the entire air filter up in a large plastic bag so that Boundless can properly examine it and determine its efficency in snapping the turbo shaft in half. Also, remove the intercooler and post intercooler tubing leading to the fragile aluminum turbocompressor wheel so that Boundless can see if your engine ingested a solid piece of material leading to the shaft failure. Drain the oil pan and send all the oil for a close examination so that Boundless can determine the shaft failure. He can post the oxidation and nitration valves for the oil analysis too so we all know how badly the oil was fouled.

Oh, and about that non-chipped turbo that failed going downhill even though the altitude was only 75 feet, could this have been due to high altitude snapping the shaft in half, even though the altitude was actually only 75 feet? Or maybe just because the car was going downhill momentarily the turbos shaft snapped?

Hmm, this is interesting, a Non-Chipped TDI has its turbo shaft snapped going downhill at 75 ft. altitude while another's shaft snaps while going uphill??

Interesting, does anyone see the correlation on these snapped shafts?

HOLY MACKERAL, THIS IS MUCH MORE DANGEROUS THAN "CHIP TUNING"


Get it now Boundless?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
 

Davin

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Location
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TDI
2001 Golf GLS 5spd blk/blk
Originally posted by SkyPup:

Turbocharger operation under changing ambient conditions (extreme barometric pressure and/or temperature environments) introduces additional complications for the manufacturer of both the turbocharger and the engine. Foremost is a reduction of the surge margin (the left hand portion of the compressor map) while still offering partial compensation for reduced mass air inlet density at higher altitude levels.

...

Selection of a turbocharger compressor wheel is mostly a matter of ensuring a sufficient surge margin while maintaining that the engines operation at both maximum torque and maximum power occur
at reasonable compressor speeds and efficiencies.

...

A good compressor wheel with the correct trim will function clear of the surge line and lie in an area of high operational efficiency.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

-davin
 

Oldman

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Feb 3, 2001
Location
Leander,TX,USA
aaron to your point,
first you got to take apart the motor(or buy a new one complete with turbo), there is going to be stuff all over every tube and nook and cranny. You got to clean the intercooler, all the ducting including the down pipe, . At the expense of a new motor, I'd not take any chances!

I would think about selling your upsolute chip or at least getting a stock chip till you get the motor going again. The Upsolute chip raises boost, maybe think about getting a 3 pot tuning box if you need the extra power (we all "need it right"). Check your screens and air filter you don't want any blockage. Get it running stock than fool around if need be. IMO.

BTW for trouble shooting what kind of filter are you running, how about the screens?

Are you just chipped or do you have bigger injectors?

[ March 25, 2002, 15:21: Message edited by: Oldman ]
 

aaron

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2001
Location
In my car
TDI
asbarrus
Oldman, I was only chipped, no injectors. I also had a pipercross installed. Snow screan was intact and has been cleaned every 5k miles when I rotate the tires.

Also, had an epsilonian device and an elephant hose. Was running on my 2nd MAF.

It is no longer (presently) chipped, and I'm hoping to do some work on it this weekend, including an intercooler cleanout. Do you suppose I've got to ream out the entire motor to check for debris?! Remember, the motor ran for another mile after the incident - and I turned it off manually. No catastrophic failure in the moter. I'll do what it takes, but pulling the head - oh that's just a lot of work! What do y'all think?

Aaron
 

Oldman

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Feb 3, 2001
Location
Leander,TX,USA
I really think you should pop the head and clean it out, if need be you may have to yank the pistons and clean, this can only be determined after you yank the head. Minimally you should rotate the motor and clean the bores, then blow out the bores, reoil and put head back on. Any metal fragments are going to play havoc on the cylinder walls and the new turbo blades. Gotta buy new head bolts and head gasket, better safe than sorry. IMO. Metal is bad for a motor.
 

Ding

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Apr 12, 2001
Location
B.C. Canada
I can send you the turbo shaft. It is much smaller than you might expect. That dinky thing is supposed to bring home all the HP. What a joke. The shop that inspected my turbo said that torque is what twisted off my impeller wheel.

If your boosting around 20PSI sustained at high RPM's with your VNT-15 you maybe asking for trouble. I say that with unfortunate experience. High boost at high RPM's means your turbo is pumping more cubic feet of air. This requires the turbo to do the most work.

The reason I say that is because my turbo failed at about 3800 RPM's making about 20PSI. The sustained boost pressure was increased with an electric bleed similar to what Mickey use's on his hybrid turbo.

The shaft looks far too small. I bet a bigger shaft from day one would of made this turbo very durable. Compared to the older GT-15 wastegate turbo the VNT-15 is not nearly as durable when pushed hard.
 

Boundless

BANNED
Joined
Jan 3, 2001
Aaron,

I'm with oldman 1,000%. Better safe than sorry. Doing an inspection & complete clean out is cheap insurance.

Carefully look for particles throughout the intake plumbing as you dissassemble.

Ding, what you and others say about the A4 makes me happy I've got an 'old' A3, although there are updates on the A4 that I wish I had on my A3, such as the intercooler sink air intake duct.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
Haven't you heard about the terrible problems with sticking wastegates on the A3 GT15 turbos yet? When they stick closed it is a big bummer due to the surge problems exceeding maximum desgin boost, and when they stick open it is a drag too due to the lack of boost. Not to mention the original KKK03 and GT15 both have a factory recall on them. Have you checked your serial number on your turbocompressor housing to make sure that yours was not offically recalled? You could be sitting on a time bomb
Post your serial number and I'll let you know if yours is defective.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
note to the uninitiated: Skypup is yanking Boundless's chain!

I'm glad to have a GT15 turbo on my car which has so far given 246,000 km without a hint of trouble despite being chipped, injectored, resistored, water-injected, boost-bleeded, and generally flogged due to my lead foot and my habit of hitching up a 1500 lb trailer on a regular basis. Wastegate works, it gets tested several times every day
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
max altitude attained has been slightly below 5,000 feet above sea level, but only for a couple of days.
 
M

mickey

Guest
Oldman: Nary a speck of aluminum made it past my intercooler. I removed and dismantled the engine for no reason, and wasted $3000 on a new one. All I needed was a turbo, and to backflush the intercooler.

That's no guarantee that there isn't something nasty in aaron's motor. That's his decision to make. (But there is no WAY I'm taking his engine apart in my driveway next Saturday! Turbo only.) All I can say is, if I had it to do over again I'd just look carefully in the post-intercooler intake pipes and see if there are any bits. If there are no bits, then I'd take my chances.

If bits got into the engine, it's already chewed. It's worth replacing the turbo and running it for a while to see what happens.

-mickey
 
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