Proposed Michigan gas tax

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
We can argue the politics side all day, but my only public comment that I think most of us can agree upon... if the tax is to fix roads, put all the new revenue into a separate fund that can only be used to fix streets.

Just dumping it into the general fund allows them to spend it on other pet projects doesn't seem right to me. Just like the lottery funds that was supposed to go to schools.
 

JDSwan87

Black Swamp Thing
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Location
Michigan near Toledo
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI, 5 speed Lagoon Blue Metallic(sold); 2005 Jetta TDI Wagon auto
We can argue the politics side all day, but my only public comment that I think most of us can agree upon... if the tax is to fix roads, put all the new revenue into a separate fund that can only be used to fix streets.

Just dumping it into the general fund allows them to spend it on other pet projects doesn't seem right to me. Just like the lottery funds that was supposed to go to schools.
That'll never happen...
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
That is the problem with so many of these well-intentioned initiatives. They are too loose and open ended as to how the gathered funds are spent.

Missouri recently shot down a similar fuel tax, to nobody's surprise, simply because there was too broad of an application. They tried to pass it off as just for road improvements, but the deal killer was they also sneaked in "law enforcement funding" in which case there was really no clearly defined parameters.

Taxes that are levied and continually misappropriated and give 30 cents (if that) for intended goods and services on every dollar collected are doomed to fail. And bureaucrats and politicians just cannot grasp this.

FWIW, Michigan, your roads are awful. Abysmal. I sincerely hope you find a way to improve them for your own well being and those of us that like to come visit now and then.
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Funny story:

I was headed to Michigan one year for our annual "Winterfest" to attend the NAIAS with a few fellow TDI friends. One of them, who was already there, and was a native MI resident but no longer living there, prewarned me as I set out, to "be careful when you cross the state line into Michigan, as they have already run out of money to keep the highways clear". Seriously. Michigan. In January. Was out of money.

He was NOT kidding, as soon as I crossed from the Ohio border, the highways were AWFUL. Snow packed, ice slicks, and more ripped off bumper covers strewn about the sides of the road that I have ever seen. It was a white knuckled ride the rest of the way across the state to the Ipsilanti area. Crazy stuff, I passed SO MANY accidents.

And we had snow on the ground here in Missouri at that time, too. Our highways were clear. Illinois' highways were clear. Indiana's were clear. Ohio's were clear (albeit riddled with potholes). But Michigan was like entering a third world country. I would not have believed it had I not experienced it.
 

jmodge

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
The city of Grand Rapids never has enough money for their roads, Police, Fire, etc, they usually blame it on their employees. But they sure are putting one heck of an effort and resources into attempting to flush 30,000,000+ dollars down the river to restore the rapids.
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
We can argue the politics side all day, but my only public comment that I think most of us can agree upon... if the tax is to fix roads, put all the new revenue into a separate fund that can only be used to fix streets.

Just dumping it into the general fund allows them to spend it on other pet projects doesn't seem right to me. Just like the lottery funds that was supposed to go to schools.
You mean like Al Gore's lock box idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC2poPYv--4
 

Hyde7278

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2012
Location
Central Mich
TDI
2001 Golf GL
They tried to pass new taxes last year for "road repairs" and they was not passed by the voters.
Sometimes I think politicians think there constitutes are idiots. Like said before if it's not put in a separate fund the politicians will find different uses for it that mostly benefits them.
I grew up in CT and never had problems with how they well they cleared and kept the roads (other then them fixing and tearing up the same stretch of I95 every year) since moving to MI I'm amazed a how terrible of a job they do clearing the roads.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Funny story:
I was headed to Michigan one year for our annual "Winterfest" to attend the NAIAS with a few fellow TDI friends. One of them, who was already there, and was a native MI resident but no longer living there, prewarned me as I set out, to "be careful when you cross the state line into Michigan, as they have already run out of money to keep the highways clear". Seriously. Michigan. In January. Was out of money.
He was NOT kidding, as soon as I crossed from the Ohio border, the highways were AWFUL. Snow packed, ice slicks, and more ripped off bumper covers strewn about the sides of the road that I have ever seen. It was a white knuckled ride the rest of the way across the state to the Ipsilanti area. Crazy stuff, I passed SO MANY accidents.
And we had snow on the ground here in Missouri at that time, too. Our highways were clear. Illinois' highways were clear. Indiana's were clear. Ohio's were clear (albeit riddled with potholes). But Michigan was like entering a third world country. I would not have believed it had I not experienced it.
I remember that year. Route 23 to Ypsi was quite an experience. But Michigan is not alone. I've driven to Wisconsin three times since August and when you cross the border from Ohio to Indiana the road immediately deteriorates to an alarming degree. And Chicago isn't much better. Wisconsin, surprisingly, isn't bad. At least most of what I've driven on isn't.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
*Upper* Michigan last year was about the best I ever remember it - just about every major road had been repaved, as well as a lot of the secondaries. (Had been pretty bad for quite some time prior though . . .)
 

jmodge

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Governor makes no bones about wanting the legislature to pass it without a public vote. Will put us as the highest gas taxed state apparently. There has been a lot of secondary road improvement here. Getting harder to find poor dirt roads in this state, just crappy primary roads. If they would use the money to put them back to dirt they’ll have my endorsement
 

leicaman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 24, 2004
Location
Sheboygan, Wisconsin
TDI
2015 Golf TDI SE, 2005 TDI GLS, RIP
It is not just the state, it is at the county and city level here in Sheboygan, Wis. We have an annual $20 city wheel tax along with a half penny county sales tax that is for roads. The wheel tax is exclusive for streets. Our roads in our county and city were really bad. My regular mechanic said that last year he has replaced more springs, blown struts and shocks than ever. My dealer parts guy said he was not surprised as to how many alloy wheels he has had to order for customers due to potholes. While there are bad spots, there have been many improvements that I think have made things for the better. Years ago we had a wheel tax that was a campaign pledge by a mayor to get rid of. They got rid of it and then streets went downhill fast. Things are looking better here fortunately.
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
It is not just the state, it is at the county and city level here in Sheboygan, Wis. We have an annual $20 city wheel tax along with a half penny county sales tax that is for roads. The wheel tax is exclusive for streets. Our roads in our county and city were really bad. My regular mechanic said that last year he has replaced more springs, blown struts and shocks than ever. My dealer parts guy said he was not surprised as to how many alloy wheels he has had to order for customers due to potholes. While there are bad spots, there have been many improvements that I think have made things for the better. Years ago we had a wheel tax that was a campaign pledge by a mayor to get rid of. They got rid of it and then streets went downhill fast. Things are looking better here fortunately.
It's not just MI, Iowa, or central Iowa (Polk, Dallas, Warren etc) just came back for the third time for local option sales tax increases. This time though they threatened the population that if they didn't vote for it they would raise property taxes again.

Many states (or counties / munis) are in trouble, they've made big promises to pensions, some open ended promises, that they can't afford with current levels of taxation.

They're now trying to ride the supposed 'good times' with higher taxes of all sorts to at least make a dent in the shortfalls that are coming. My property taxes went up 26.5% last year through a change in value and a change in the levy rate. That's one reason I'm moving out of central iowa.

Further, as has been said before, voters need to have guarantees that the funds will go for what they need and what they're being told.

If the funds, like in Iowa, are ending up keeping mayoral promises to move everyone in the employment of the City to $15 minimum wage then there's going to be angry tax payers.

I think everyone knows that when the 'good times' are here the tax increases come hot n heavy. Just a few years back when oil prices were very low and fuel was low the Iowa House rushed a measure through to increase fuel tax by 10 cents per gallon. There was almost zero debate and I think they got it done in two days before constituents could raise a ruckus about it. That tells you exactly how much they really care about the people they represent.

At any rate, taxes go up when times are good, if you can call it that, and then when the pain comes via recession or stagnation cities and states twiddle their thumbs and won't talk about about adjusting taxes downward to reflect changes.

The other complaint I have is that now cities / states are pulling out certain things from the general budget and trying to fund them separately via additional taxes or fees. The DOT and roads are one of those that currently is trying to be funded outside normal channels. What happened to the moneys that were paid by tax payers that were supposed to go there?

Be very careful about voting for tax increases, once it's done you know it'll never be undone.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
And people wonder why I insist in running the smallest diameter wheels available for most of my cars (B4 has 15s on it, not exactly huge). I need the sidewall height to protect the wheels. Still, I bend wheels. My BMW came with 17s (smallest wheel available for that model) and 3 out of the 4 wheels were bent when I bought it. I have a slightly bent AVUS wheel on my Wagon. And a slightly bent steelie with a snow tires. I can't imagine running 18s.
 

SilverGhost

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2005
Location
Back in So Flo - St Lucie
TDI
'05 Golf - totaled :(, wife's '13 Beetle - buy back, TDIless
Am I the only one who wonders how long before people stop driving on the horrible roads and destroying their cars? When roads start looking like ghost towns because of how bad they are, wouldn't that "say something" to legislators? Or at least call bad press to their districts?

Jason

PS: we have a few bad spots in Nashville. We joke about lanes closures so they can fish from the bigger pot holes.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Stop driving on the roads? That'll show them.

What's the alternative? Take the bus? Most politicians would love that.

As for "lock boxes" to guarantee funds go where they are supposed to... doesn't won't work. They just cut funding from the regular budget with the rationale that the program in question has that special funding.
 

Powder Hound

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 25, 1999
Location
Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
.. And bureaucrats and politicians just cannot grasp this...
Not true. They grasp it just fine, they just assume the voters are too stupid to remember their lying and stealing when elections come around, the press is too stupid to remind them, and every election proves them correct. As Harry Hopkins (FDR's chief of staff) said, "Tax and tax. Spend and spend. Elect and elect. The people are too damned dumb to know the difference." The collective memory of the voters is 2 weeks or less depending on how much beer they have had to drink lately.

Cheers,

PH
 

Lightflyer1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Location
Round Rock, Texas
TDI
2015 Beetle tdi dsg
Voters are so stupid they won't even take the time to vote. OAC only had 11-12% turnout altogether and she won by 57% or maybe 6% over all of the turnout. When people won't even take the time to vote we are doomed to be ruled by a tiny minority. Even in the presidential elections half the people don't vote. It boggles my mind why someone would choose not to vote. Even if you have to pick the lesser of evils, cast your vote.
 

belome

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 8, 2010
Location
Mid MI
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS TDI 5-speed
I hate to get too deep into politics on here, but we need to break up the two party system. There are some very good other parties that have much better ideals, but they can't get any votes because people are scared that if they don't vote for the lesser of two evils then the other evil will win.

This last presidential election is a glaring example of that... and look what we got.
 

michTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2000
Location
Charlotte, MI, USA
TDI
2003 Jetta and 2015 GSW MT
Part of the problem is that road funding for a LONG time here in Michigan has been inadequate to really fix the roads. They do "half assed" patching a lot of the time even on major highways/interstates. This is just a "bandaid" to get them a while longer-when they come back and "patch" it again. Endless cycle. Granted we have lots of freeze-thaw cycles which are tough on roads but still. So now the Guv proposes a huge gas tax increase......even if every cent went to roads it would be a hard sell......just because most people think the money can magically come from somewhere else......
 
Top