lifter clatter on startup

Hello,

I'm writing this post because I have a minor concern about my cars lifters and valves when I start it.
Usually, after my car sits for a long period of time (over 4 hours), I get clatter from the lifters and valves because of the lack of oil. I have an oil pressure guage on the car and I notice that, as the oil pressure rises, the noise goes away. I am currently using Shell Rotella T 5w-40, made for deisel engines.

I'm hoping someone could tell me about a good oil, or oil additive, to prevent this unwanted wear and noise. With all of the talk about oil standars for VW, I don't want add something unless I know it'll work properly.


Any recomendations would be appreciated.

do your oil filters have the internal dam?

Yup, DD is correct in asking this. The older oil filters did not have the internal dam and this "clattering" is the result as it takes the oil pump longer to get the oil up into the valve train.

this has been a major source of irritation for many of us. Glad the fix is so simple.

I agree with everyone else. The Rotella T is a good oil, but you might need a better oil filter. What kind/brand of filter are you using now? And, was it installed with the correct end UP?

Look down the center of your oil filter. You should see a solid plastic pipe extending from the bottom end up past half way. If the solid pipe is not installed on the bottom. Then your filter is upside down!

That stand pipe is the anti drain back device. Having the filter cartridge installed upside down will negate the anti drain back device. Then you have to wait for the filter to refill with oil upon startup.

Take a look at your filter. If it's upside down just flip it and motor on.

Yup, gotta make sure the baffle is in the filter and the filter is installed correctly. This is one reason why I usually pick up my filters from a good source (dealer, or in my case Brian @ Roseland Technical Services) Don't take a chance with a $12 Walmart Fram filter.. You are just asking for probs...

FYI, the Mann filters will have TOP stamped on the top of the filter...

I think the genuine MANNs are available from IMPEX for about $6 or $7.

--Nate

pre lube - flame me I do not care - I put a pre lube on my car and even my wife who has no car experience noticed its quieter at startup. Ignition on and in about 8 seconds I have about 15 psi - it can hold it for over 15 seconds for all that need glow time.

Just another data point.

I run Mann filters and have a slight lifter clatter at start-up after a weekend of sitting. The clatter goes away in about 5 seconds after start-up.

I have run only Delvac 1 (5W40) since the first change. I have 136K on the odometer. I also have a bypass filter installed.

I have no clatter - I have instant pressure it cranks and by the time my first compression ignition occurs I am at 50psi. I have tested over and over again. Its my only mod and the only one I am considering after this is a increased oil cooling. Till someone can show me other non invasive things that will reduce wear or increase milage - a chip is invasive in my opinion.

wjdell said:

Its my only mod and the only one I am considering after this is a increased oil cooling. Till someone can show me other non invasive things that will reduce wear or increase milage...

Click to expand...

Off-topic, I know, but... is the OE fuel filter in the Mk5 better than in the Mk4? Because if it's the same, then a Cat fuel filter would be a mod that reduces wear. (And save money too, over the long run.)

TornadoRed said:

Off-topic, I know, but... is the OE fuel filter in the Mk5 better than in the Mk4? Because if it's the same, then a Cat fuel filter would be a mod that reduces wear. (And save money too, over the long run.)

Click to expand...

very good and I appreciate your advice but I am going cat filter but not on the car but on my Fillrite 700 - I will filter ther fuel before it reaches my car I wrote to them to see if I could use it and they said yes.

its only 18 bucks

wjdell said:

very good and I appreciate your advice but I am going cat filter but not on the car but on my Fillrite 700 - I will filter ther fuel before it reaches my car I wrote to them to see if I could use it and they said yes.

its only 18 bucks

Click to expand...

That works too. And it should extend the replacement schedule for your OE fuel filter.

Ok Gentleman, here is the verdict...

The filter seems to be right side up, because when I turn it around I can't get the cap back on. Generally, I get my filter from the dealorship, as they cost about $7.50. I think this filter may be a Wicks filter, however (same price). I've heard they are good. Anyway, this leads me to ask...

Is there a legitimate additive that I could use or should I try a different, heavier oil? Or, do I have a more significant problem that I don't know about yet.

Thanks for your insight, even if it's off topic

bluecollarpilot said:

Is there a legitimate additive that I could use or should I try a different, heavier oil? Or, do I have a more significant problem that I don't know about yet.

Click to expand...

I think the "clatter" you described in the top message may be normal when the valves, cam, and lifters are not bathed in oil, during the first couple seconds of operation.

I think it was Drivbiwire who posted a chart, showing how long it takes oils of different viscosities to reach normal operating pressure. Some oils, like a 15w40 or 20w50, take a lot longer. But even a 0w30, 5w30, or 5w40 is not going to be instantaneous.

In the last week or so, one member mentioned using a "pre-luber". I'm not sure how it works, or how much it costs, or if it's worth investigating.

But consider this: the wear you're worrying about is occurring in every engine. If the metal surfaces of valves or lifters were wearing away abnormally, this would show up in used-oil analysis tests. Have the oil tested in your TDI, if you're still concerned.

After swapping oil filters, I'd simply try another version of oil. My old Nissan clattered its lifters with Quakerstate - noise went away with a different oil.

BTW, I do like Rosmella T (and that lovely aroma in the Dodge...), and still use it in the motorcycle.

No damage or abnormal wear is being done to the lifters during start up. The lifters retain oil between the lifter and the cam lobe after start up. The worst thing that is happening is that the lifters are not opening as far as they could be...not a bad thing in an interference engine. As oil pressure rises in the head, the lifter adjustment expands and takes up the play between the lifter and the valve.

VW incorporated a "Bowl" of sorts that causes residual oil to drain back to the lifter tops. Again there is no damage or abnormal wear being done when you hear the lifters during startup. This design predates the VW Rabbit back in the 1970's so it works and it works VERY well at lubricating the engine during startup.

Pre-lubers are a waste of time and money when using a 5w40 or specially certified 506.01 0w30 or 507.00 5w30.

Use the startup clatter as an indicator of when the engine is fully lubed and ready to drive off. Seldom if ever will it last more than a few seconds.

DB

bluecollarpilot said:

Is there a legitimate additive that I could use or should I try a different, heavier oil?

Click to expand...

blue, heavier oil would be headed in the wrong direction. It's odd you have this issue with the products you mention (dealer filter and 5W40 oil) during the summer months. Is it much worse during cold weather?

Do you have any new oil filters you can take a picture of? I have purchased filters from the dealer that did NOT have the internal dam and caused the problem you describe. However, based upon your comment that it can only fit in one direction leads me to believe it does have the internal baffle (anti-drainback function).

the oils that give you better mpg also drain away faster... its by design of the newer oils to give you better performance and less friction...
they dont shear but they have smaller more stable chains... moving back to an hd 15-40 will often fix the problem, but will cost you up to 2% mpg....due to the drag of the heavy complex molecules... but ususally cling longer... your choice... if your going for a 500,000 engine... run the 15-40.. if your like most of us... less than 200k and i want to get something newer, quieter, pretter, and newer technology... then the 5-40 or in case of ford and honda the 0-20w is fine for 150k of driving with good protection and great mpg.... (just dont overload them or overheat them)

my hd equip, i chose to run 15-40 and i will keep them for 40 to 50 years...

my cars... hey 8 years and 150k is too long... 5w40 is ok or 505.01whatever oil is fine... i will save enough in fuel to pay for a new throw-away car in fuel... but the 200k equip.. thats a different story...

btw... opinions are worth about what you pay for them....

Thanks everyone for the great information...I feel better, and I'll leave it alone.

I believe that it is the Rotella 5W/40. I just changed to this oil because the MOBIL Turbo Diesel oil 5W/40 is unavailable. I get this clatter. I have been using the same oil filters for years. BTW: My car is a 1Z B4 Passat fresh from a rebuild.

Pre lubers are a waste of time and money

and so is beating your engine for 50k

LNXGUY said:

Yup, gotta make sure the baffle is in the filter and the filter is installed correctly. This is one reason why I usually pick up my filters from a good source (dealer, or in my case Brian @ Roseland Technical Services) Don't take a chance with a $12 Walmart Fram filter.. You are just asking for probs...

FYI, the Mann filters will have TOP stamped on the top of the filter...

Click to expand...

Kinda ot for where the thread has gone, but the $12 walmart Fram filters aren't Fram. They're made by Mann, same ones as if you order online from most of the suppliers. They're a lot pricier, but I've bought them when I've been out of filters and need to do a change.