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General Automotive General automotive discussion. This is intended to be a discussion about other not VW and Diesel cars you may have or interested in.

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Old June 4th, 2019, 07:41   #4831
kjclow
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Not bad but no where near the 100 miles I should be riding on the weekend to get ready for another RAGBRAI. Too much yard work! Well that and stopping for a beer at the halfway point.
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Old June 6th, 2019, 09:14   #4832
MichaelB
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Out with the old in with the new.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=qEvNL6oEr0U
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Old June 11th, 2019, 03:33   #4833
bwilson4web
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The density of SuperChargers supported +700 mi trips between Huntsville AL to Coffeyville KS and a second one to Richardson TX (aka., Dallas.) The first trip included using an RV Park for a full charge, ~5 hours, the day before returning home. Ours is a Tesla Standard Range Plus Model 3, 240 mi EV, that replaced our 2017 Prius Prime.

Cross country, the operational scenario is:
  • Night before, fully charge battery for first leg. Around town we only charge to 85% to leave 'headroom' for regenerative braking.
  • SuperCharger-to-SuperCharger - do a biology break and leave wife at bar/restaurant/diner. Put car on charger and walk back with dogs. After 20-30 min., walk back to car to load up wife and dogs. Shorter SuperCharger-to-SuperCharger legs are the fastest and cheapest way to drive. Charge with a ~30 mile reserve to the next SuperCharger and adjust speed as needed to keep at least 10 miles in reserve.
  • Over night, camp at an RV Park with 30-50A outlets or a hotel/motel with a 208-240 VAC, L2 charger. Let car fully charge, ~5 hours, for the next day's first leg. We use "Dog Mode" to make the car a climate controlled, dog kennel with water, food, and a poop pad.
  • Midday or Supper break, ~1 hour, let the car fully charge while leisurely enjoying a meal.
  • At 65 mph, our SuperCharger electricity costs run about the same as a 100 MPG car with $2.50 gas. Weather and detours can reduce it to ~75 MPG.
  • AutoPilot changes long distance driving to just sitting in a comfortable chair, listening to tunes, chatting with your wife, and watching the world go by. The "dead man" prompt requires torquing the steering wheel every minute or so. Sad to say, it is illegal to drink and AutoPilot drive. <SIGH>
Driving a 240 mi EV on a cross-country trip is different and interesting for the technically skilled. Certainly an EV is not for everyone as there are EV deserts West of the Rockies and across the Great Plains. Fortunately there are multiple SuperCharger routes running coast-to-coast. Happily, the Pacific Coast and East of the Mississippi have plenty of SuperChargers.

Bob Wilson

ps. After 70 days, we have over 7,300 miles in our Model 3. We're on our 3d, software version and each has added functions and improved others. Kinda strange in a nice way to buy a car and it keeps getting better the longer you own it.
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Last edited by bwilson4web; June 11th, 2019 at 03:43.
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Old June 11th, 2019, 05:01   #4834
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Your last bullet point suggests that you are complacent about AutoPilot; the nature of its operation leads to a false sense of security. At a minimum you have to be aware of the circumstances that have led to crashes (some fatal): lane-splits, construction zones, temporary lane markings, cross traffic (it has driven itself underneath the trailer units of cross-traffic tractor-trailers at least twice with fatal consequences; no one knows how many other close-calls there have been), stopped vehicles in the same lane. It does not do defensive-driving at all, and it does not do "courtesy" at all. If there is a vehicle approaching in a merging on-ramp, it does not take courteous preventive action such as speeding up, slowing down, or changing lanes to allow the merge to be done without conflict. It won't reposition itself within a lane to avoid potholes, objects in the road, improve clearance to adjacent large vehicles in the next lane, staying out of the blind-spots of other vehicles, etc.
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Old June 13th, 2019, 03:12   #4835
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The label "complacent" is inaccurate since I have one in my hands and 1,000s of miles of experience:
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
Your last bullet point suggests that you are complacent about AutoPilot; the nature of its operation leads to a false sense of security. At a minimum you have to be aware . . .
In surveys at Tesla forums, we're finding:
  • 80% are OK with AutoPilot and use it frequently (I'm in this group)
  • 20% don't
I'm in the 80% but have also documented AutoPilot short comings:There are others generally associated with poor or ambiguous lane lines. The irony is some of the Tesla fanboys didn't like my AutoPilot investigations and reporting. But they really went 'bat guano crazy' when I explained why I am so sold on AutoPilot.

AutoPilot saved my wife, her dogs, and me five times on a return trip home. Due to an unexpected chain of events, I was off my sleep apnea therapy for 10 days. We were on a barren stretch of road about 8 AM when I suffered five 'micro-sleep' events.

Normally 'micro-sleep' events end badly with either drifting into opposite lane traffic or off the road into the ditch. Instead, the car stayed in its lane and adjusted speed to not hit other traffic. At the nearest town 5 miles down the road, I took a bathroom break, coffee, and a stretching walk around. Then I drove the rest of the way without incident.

Knowing AutoPilot saved you and your family from five potentially serious accidents convinced me that it works. Sure, AutoPilot is not perfect but it is better than a +90% solution (much better than Toyota's TSS-P.) The remaining <10% are easily recognized and handled by manual override.

Bob Wilson
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Sold: 2003 Prius: 124k mi / 173k total

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Old June 13th, 2019, 06:01   #4836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelB View Post
I heard a comment on this that it was good marketing blitz but no real content. Reminds me of when VW started the introduction of the clean diesel. Remember the A3 passing all the cars stopped by the "green" police? Nothing specific about the car of the engine, just hype on the green. I'm sure VW wouldn't like to hear anyone comparing their new E commercial to the clean diesel campaign.
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Old June 13th, 2019, 23:04   #4837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwilson4web View Post
The label "complacent" is inaccurate since I have one in my hands and 1,000s of miles of experience:

In surveys at Tesla forums, we're finding:
  • 80% are OK with AutoPilot and use it frequently (I'm in this group)
  • 20% don't
I'm in the 80% but have also documented AutoPilot short comings:There are others generally associated with poor or ambiguous lane lines. The irony is some of the Tesla fanboys didn't like my AutoPilot investigations and reporting. But they really went 'bat guano crazy' when I explained why I am so sold on AutoPilot.

AutoPilot saved my wife, her dogs, and me five times on a return trip home. Due to an unexpected chain of events, I was off my sleep apnea therapy for 10 days. We were on a barren stretch of road about 8 AM when I suffered five 'micro-sleep' events.

Normally 'micro-sleep' events end badly with either drifting into opposite lane traffic or off the road into the ditch. Instead, the car stayed in its lane and adjusted speed to not hit other traffic. At the nearest town 5 miles down the road, I took a bathroom break, coffee, and a stretching walk around. Then I drove the rest of the way without incident.

Knowing AutoPilot saved you and your family from five potentially serious accidents convinced me that it works. Sure, AutoPilot is not perfect but it is better than a +90% solution (much better than Toyota's TSS-P.) The remaining <10% are easily recognized and handled by manual override.

Bob Wilson
I hate calling people out anymore on the internet, and you are probably a really nice man, but please consider giving up your driver's license. It sounds like you have a very serious medical issue which severely impacts your abilities to reliably operate a vehicle safely. Tesla's 'autopilot', no matter how 'gee whiz' should not be used as a crutch. You could get your family and others killed.

Maybe it's time you sat back and relaxed and let someone else do the driving?
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Old June 14th, 2019, 01:41   #4838
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicklockard View Post
. . . but please consider giving up your driver's license. . . .
That is not going to happen but perhaps we can use this opportunity for a public service posting.
Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-...s/syc-20377631
The main types of sleep apnea are:
  • Obstructive sleep apnea, the more common form that occurs when throat muscles relax
  • Central sleep apnea, which occurs when your brain doesn't send proper signals to the muscles that control breathing
  • Complex sleep apnea syndrome, also known as treatment-emergent central sleep apnea, which occurs when someone has both obstructive sleep apnea and central sleep apnea
. . .
  • Excess weight. Obesity greatly increases the risk of sleep apnea. Fat deposits around your upper airway can obstruct your breathing.
  • Neck circumference. People with thicker necks might have narrower airways.
  • A narrowed airway. You might have inherited a narrow throat. Tonsils or adenoids also can enlarge and block the airway, particularly in children.
  • Being male. Men are two to three times more likely to have sleep apnea than are women. However, women increase their risk if they're overweight, and their risk also appears to rise after menopause.
  • Being older. Sleep apnea occurs significantly more often in older adults.
  • Family history. Having family members with sleep apnea might increase your risk.
  • Use of alcohol, sedatives or tranquilizers. These substances relax the muscles in your throat, which can worsen obstructive sleep apnea.
  • Smoking. Smokers are three times more likely to have obstructive sleep apnea than are people who've never smoked. Smoking can increase the amount of inflammation and fluid retention in the upper airway.
  • Nasal congestion. If you have difficulty breathing through your nose — whether from an anatomical problem or allergies — you're more likely to develop obstructive sleep apnea.
Source: https://www.sleepfoundation.org/sleep-apnea
The treatment of choice for obstructive sleep apnea is continuous positive airway pressure device (CPAP). CPAP is a mask that fits over the nose and/or mouth, and gently blows air into the airway to help keep it open during sleep. This method of treatment is highly effective. Using the CPAP as recommended by your doctor is very important.
Other methods of treating sleep apnea include: dental appliances which reposition the lower jaw and tongue; upper airway surgery to remove tissue in the airway; nasal expiratory positive airway pressure where a disposable valve covers the nostrils; and treatment using hypoglossal nerve stimulation where a stimulator is implanted in the patient’s chest with leads connected to the hypoglossal nerve that controls tongue movement as well as to a breathing sensor. The sensor monitors breathing patterns during sleep and stimulates the hypoglossal nerve to move the tongue to maintain an open airway.
I treat my sleep apnea but a series of unplanned events meant I was off my CPAP for 10 days. Still, I had lost ~10% of my weight and no alcohol during my wife's hospital stay. I had no symptoms until that barren road . . . and then AutoPilot did what it is designed to do . . . make Teslas safer.

So no, I'm not giving up driving any more or less than anyone else. If I were to get a commercial truck driver's license, I would have to pass a medical and include my sleep apnea treatment records. If I were to get a flight medical to resume flying, again, the flight surgeon would get my sleep apnea treatment records. Let me give you a challenge.

How do you propose to identify undiagnosed sleep apnea patients?

Bob Wilson
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Traded-in: 2017 Prius Prime Plus: 16k mi / 16k mi
Sold: 2010 Prius: 73k mi / 73k mi
Sold: 2003 Prius: 124k mi / 173k total

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Old June 14th, 2019, 03:15   #4839
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I'm surprised your wife allowed you to continue driving after the first event or two. Perhaps she was sleeping too. Try to use better judgement in the future. Autopilot hasn't quite reached the level where the driver can snooze safely.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 03:23   #4840
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Scary isn't it? But, if you could fix all the stupid in the world, there simply wouldn't be many humans left.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 09:16   #4841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbobrick240 View Post
I'm surprised your wife allowed you to continue driving after the first event or two. Perhaps she was sleeping too. Try to use better judgement in the future. Autopilot hasn't quite reached the level where the driver can snooze safely.
Actually she alerted me to the first two. The other three I recognized because of 'waking' effects. BTW, my narcoleptic wife no longer drives. Her symptoms have abated since age ~65 but when she was driving it was 'interesting.'

Narcolepsy is entirely different from sleep apnea with even more serious symptoms. Yet I'd seen her detecting an event coming on and she would pull into a rest area to deal with it. Narcolepsy treatment is entirely different from sleep apnea: prescription amphetamines, provigil (modafinil generic), and GHB (yes the date rape drug.) Again, a great resource is https://www.sleepassociation.org.

Sleeping disorders are often under diagnosed. My wife's symptoms came on as a teenager but she was not diagnosed until in her 20s. There is typically a 10 year gap between initial symptoms and diagnosis. Fortunately, there are animal studies that have helped map out details of the syndrome:
https://youtu.be/jTj3a2nHw8k

There was a meeting at a narcolepsy research center that had the dogs. One of the ladies was at the kennel when a young man came up and said, "COOL! Narcoleptic dogs. Hey lady watch this BOOOOOOOO!"

The dogs and the lady collapsed in cataplexy and the young man thought he'd killed her. She had collapsed with the dogs and they were looking at each other. But she was so amused by the young man's panic, she was unable to get out of her cataplexy. Extreme happiness can bring on a cataplexy.

Going back to AutoPilot, the advanced "Navigate on AutoPilot" gives a clue about the future. Currently limited to divided highways, it requires confirmation of lane changes but knows how to deal with slow traffic and up coming exits. This technology will extend safe driving for older folks . . . which hopefully you'll achieve someday. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson
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Traded-in: 2017 Prius Prime Plus: 16k mi / 16k mi
Sold: 2010 Prius: 73k mi / 73k mi
Sold: 2003 Prius: 124k mi / 173k total

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Old June 14th, 2019, 11:50   #4842
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I hate to be #3, but I have already had this discussion with my wife when her father was driving. There were several times when her and her brothers had to scold him for driving when he shouldn't. Luckily only damage was a fence that was repaired. But imagine it could have been worse had there been someone on that sidewalk.

As far as AutoPilot, it makes overall driving safer in controlled environments, but has a few gaping holes. See the fatalities from people depending on AutoPilot.

Personally I see your specific situation the same as someone who has a restricted license for corrective lenses and forgot their glasses. You KNEW you were off you meds and drove anyway. I could care less about the rest of the time - you got a car that can help "catch you" if you have an event. Bravo for taking steps to help make roads safer. But knowingly driving when you shouldn't - that is when I have a problem.

Please ask for a ride if something like this comes up again.

Jason
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Old June 14th, 2019, 19:14   #4843
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If we can put sleep disorders aside, next week I'm headed to:
Source: EV Conference - Revealing Secrets of Tesla Model 3, BMW i3 and Chevy Bolt
Calling all automotive engineers looking for objective technical information about today’s leading electric vehicles (EVs). Munro & Associates, world leaders in the Lean Design® methodology, teardown benchmarking and design optimization, is hosting an Electric Vehicle Technical Briefing on Friday, June 21 at its world headquarters in Auburn Hills, Mich. During the event, the Munro team will present an engineering comparison of four leading EVs: the Tesla Model 3; the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt; and the Jaguar I-PACE.

The tour of the Munro Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center will provide an Engineering deep dive of the most advanced electric vehicles and technologies in the market today. Munro will also provide an in-depth view into how you can analyze products and perform your own reengineering.

The main focus will be on the EV “Big 3” Motors, Batteries and Electronics; however, there will be a new technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today. The Tesla 3 will be compared to the BMW i3 and the Chevy Bolt.

Unlike many “Power Point Conferences” the parts of all three of the vehicles will be laid out on tables and Munro “A Frames” with knowledgeable Munro Engineers to provide a detailed description of the key take-ways from each part of the car and answer questions.

For the Jaguar I-PACE, there will be a hoist review to discuss the I-PACE and its electric motor.

EXTRA! Munro has also invited an independent investigator from Tesloop who will share important aspects of EVs that are rarely discussed; life expectancy and maintenance of an EV. Tesloop has ALL the documentation on the durability of the Tesla product.
This is a must attend event for all EV Engineers!
$199 which includes:
  • An overview of: motors, batteries, and electronics the “EV Big 3”
  • A technology review with insight into the engineering and designs of some of the other innovative vehicles on the road today
  • A tour of Munro’s Benchmarking Investigation, Innovation & Implementation Center
  • The opportunity to participate in an engineering deep dive of today’s most advanced EVs and technologies
  • An in-depth view into how Munro analyzes products and performs reverse engineering.
Timing, Location & Agenda:
Friday, June 21st, 2019
Munro & Associates
1140 Centre Road Auburn Hills, MI 48326
Code:
8:30 to 9:00    Registration, Coffee & Donuts
9:00 to 9:15    Welcome and logistics
9:15 to 9:45    Who is Munro? How do we get our Numbers?
9:45 to 10:15   Battery Debrief
10:15 to 10:45   Electronics Debrief
10:45 to 11:15   Electric Motor Debrief
11:15 to 12:00   Long Range Tesla Data; Full data on Tesla vehicles some with 380,000 MILES!    BTW No Maintenance Issues!!!
12:00 to 13:00 Lunch
13:00 to 15:30   Group Breakout, On-The-Floor, Around The Parts Review;
I- PACE Hoist Review, Side-By-Side Discussions At 5 Teardown Stations
To Discuss All The Vehicle Components
15:30 to 16:30   Social Hour, Tours of Other Vehicles at Munro and Networking
If you have specific interest or questions, post them here and I'll take them with me to the conference.
I've got everything mapped out:
  • Conference fee, $200 (paid)
  • Leave Thursday 6-7 AM, arrive 8:30-9:30 PM (13h 32m)
  • 696 mi expected cost $40 each way based on previous trips (*), $80 total
  • SuperCharger stops, charging time, and arrival
    • Bowling Green, 30 min
    • Louisville, 30 min
    • Cincinnati, 30 min
    • Lima, 30 min
    • Toledo, 30 min
    • arrive Auburn Hills
  • car rental and parking, $0
  • hotel room $75
  • AutoPilot is my co-pilot
  • return Friday evening
  • Tesla napping at the chargers
  • arrive home Saturday morning
This approach is CHEAP compared to the least expensive airfare. It is also GOOD because I get to take what I want, flexible schedule, and eat where I want. Best of all, I avoid the purgatory of TSA, airports, and airliners.

Bob Wilson
* - Trips to Dallas and Coffeyville came in at $30-40 each way. Likely to see only $80 total charging fees.
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Old June 14th, 2019, 19:17   #4844
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and you kept driving after being caught 2 times by your wife. There are some surgeries available for this as well. I have had them with great results! No more CPAP!

This is my Doctor.

https://www.sinussnoringent.com/

You might try one of them if you can find someone good, if you haven't already
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Old June 15th, 2019, 06:08   #4845
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$80 in approximate charging fees for about 700 miles may seem like a lot to us diesel geezers. I get 550 miles on $47 with one 5 minute fillup with my 5-series BMW. Just saying. 2.5 hours of charging each way seems somewhat problematic compared to 10 minutes at the fuel station. Thanks for the info. Interesting conference.

TM
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