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VW B5 Passat TDIs This is a general discussion about B5 Passat(>98 (2004-2005 in North America)). Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old December 10th, 2009, 20:12   #1
CharlieT
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Default BHW Cam Wear... and replacement (pics)

2005 Passat Wagon TDI (BHW), 110k miles
History : I bought it at 100k (cheap, thankfully !) LINK

Dealer serviced in Houston by Clear Lake VW, full history.
Discovered dealer uses Castrol syncrap (sorry.. syntech) 5w30 gasser oil for all oil changes… straight from the 55 gal drum. Not good.
And they did 5k changes, very nice, thanks….. LINK

So, I pulled the valve cover back in July and was pretty happy, looked fine.. or so I thought. LINK

More detailed inspection of the cams, now that I knew I was looking for sharp edges on the cam lobes, revealed a lot more wear. LINK

So, did some shopping with Franko6 (thanks !!), bought a new BHW cam, lifters, cam bearing shells (modded) and 12.9 bolts.
Cam took 8 weeks to arrive.. US all out of stock… new stock had to come from Germany.

So.. when I fully tore it all down and rebuilt it on Sunday, this is what I found.
I numbered things starting at #1 at the belt end of the head, above cyl #1 (seems logical to me !)
#5 lifter (cyl 3 intake apparently ?) was really bad, top is domed in. This is the lobe that I saw was bad back in September.
Lower bearing shells are not as bad as I thought.. wear is nowhere near the oiling slots, so not sure how the whole ‘covering the oil slots’ theory works.







#5 lifter (cyl3 intake ??)




New cam on left, old on right.. note #5 lobe wear (photo doesn't do it justice, it looks really bad close up)




Other lobes aren't too bad




Rebuild was pretty easy. I ran some torque calcs for the 12.9 bolts and decided on 15 ft lbs oiled for the M6s and 35 ft lbs oiled for the M8s.
I used Comp Cam’s assy lube all over the lifters, lobes and bearings, that stuff is seriously sticky !!




I also did the Franko6 mod... LINK... and Frank kindly supplied his new modified upper bearing shells (I think I got serial #00001 ??!)




I had predrained the oil and filled with 1 gal of Comp Cams Break-in Oil, and new filter.
This is because you want to immediately take the revs to 2000+ when you start it with the new cam and hold it 2000-3000 rpms for 30+ mins. You do NOT want to stop and change oils.
So, did the 30 mins break in at 2000-3000 rpm. Then drained and filled with 1 gal of Mobil 1 TDT 5w40 with 2 oz of ZDDP. I want the Zn/P levels to be 1500 ppm+ for the next few thousand miles… help the cam., screw the cat !

I am now at 300 miles on this fill, will drain and change filter again at 500 miles… and refill with more M1TDT and 2oz ZDDP.

I will be driving ~3000 miles over Christmas, so in January I will pull the valve cover again and inspect.

Impression thus far… runs better, seems to have a bit more power, idles much better (idle stabilization is exactly the same as before, +1). Fuel economy appears to be 2-3 mpg better, but more time needed to prove that.

I will be disassembling the lifters to see what I can find.. I really suspect that #5 is either plugged, or has a part missing. Franko6 has found some lifters with internal springs missing… there is a thread on here somewhere.

My theory on it all ???
I think I see a trend towards southern US cars running 5w30 oils (505.01 or not) having more wear/failures, looking at the data collection threads.
Here in Houston, summer temps are 105+ during the day, and 90+ at night. I really don’t think that the PD engines cool the oil enough, and 5w30 is just far too thin to run in this heat. 5w40 survives much better and 15w50 may be even better (I know, that will not be popular on here !)
I am a TDT mafia life member now, in all my TDIs… I think the 3.9 HT/HS viscosity is key… at high ambient temps.
I am seriously tempted to run Mobil 1 15w50 next summer… when the engine never gets below 90 Deg F, I cannot see how a 15w50 is going to be an issue, it will flow fine and oil pressure should come up just as quick as a 5w40 ?

I cannot see how the apparent cam bearing wear on mine could have caused ONLY #5 lifter to crater ? I think the two are related, both caused by high temps and crappy oils… but I do NOT think the cam bearing wear caused reduced oiling, causing lifter wear/failure.. why just #5 ??
In fact… maybe the cam lobe/lifter wear caused enough metal that it caused the cam bearing wear ?! the oil film is under massive pressure there, so small metal particles would likely eat up the bearings pretty fast ?
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Last edited by CharlieT; December 10th, 2009 at 20:30.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 20:13   #2
CharlieT
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If you want more pics.... go here
















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Last edited by CharlieT; December 10th, 2009 at 21:33.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 20:44   #3
oilhammer
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Couple observations: that looks pretty bad, worse than any of the BHWs I have had the valve cover off of. Once again, in your case confirmed wrong oil use (thank you dealer! ).

However, while I also am a firm believer in the proper 5w40 oil use, I think you will find that the ambient temps have not a whole lot of impact on oil temps inside the engine. The oil heat exchanger passes heat from the oil to the coolant, and the coolant passes heat from both the oil and the rest of the engine to the air via the radiator, cooling fan(s), and thermostat. So while your 105 F day in summer may be hotter than my 95 F in summer, you will actually find that after an hour of driving the crankcase oil temps will be pretty much the same. Literally within a degree or 2 of one another. Because it is somewhat regulated because its heat exchange with the coolant system is regulated. 190 F thermostat is going to open at 190 F. 190 F is warmer than both 95 F or 105 F. Makes no difference.

Speaking from my air-cooled VW experience, which is FAR more a test of motor oil than any liquid-cooled engine can dish out, oil temps get highest under extreme loads, not ambient temps. And since you probably have very few hills in TX and certainly plenty of air being closer to sea level, I would not worry too much about your oil temps.

Besides, contrary to what some may think, HOT oil actually not only lubricates better, but it also insures any water vapor in the crankcase spilled over from combustion stays in vapor form and gets pulled out of the engine. This is less an issue with diesels, however, since they make less water vapor anyways (less fuel burned, much leaner ratios, means less water vapor created, but still you can have too cool of oil just like too hot).

FWIW, I run 15w50 in my Vanagon, and it gets its oil temps cranked up over 270 F at times (towing). I doubt a TDI could get them that high.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 21:09   #4
CharlieT
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OH, thanks for the comments, I learn something new every day !
I still don't like the idea of a 5w30, whether 505.01 or not. I think I read MB don't even approve 5w30 oils for US diesel use ?
So, question is.. I know you prefer Pentosin 5w40.. good stuff.
BUT.... If it was only available in 5w30, would you run a 505.01 5w30 oil ?? or would you run a 5w40 non-505.01 ?
ie, do you think 5w30 is too thin our TDIs ?

My point is, I don't think I care if if the oil is 505.01 or not.
More important to me is that it is at least 5w40, it is full synthetic, has a good Grp 3 or Grp 4 base oil and has Zn/P levels at ~1200ppm or higher.
If I can find one of those in 505.01... great. Else I will run non 505.01, but meeting the above.
A 505.01 which does not meet the above seems like a poor idea... to me
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Last edited by CharlieT; December 10th, 2009 at 21:43.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 21:22   #5
eddif
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Nice start on the thread. If you get a chance post a side view of the cam.

I totally agree with the 15W-50 oil. At first I thought it might be to viscious for use without pre-lube but then I talked to a fellow from Wisconsin that runs 15W-40 year round. His car does sleep in a garage but during the day it is out in the cold. He is at about 150,000 miles US plus. I have a 5 quart M1 jug by my foot. As soon as I get through with the bearing design it is my next step. We could custom mix it with TDT 5W-40.

I say it so much I know it gets old. I think copper release from the bearings, starts copper streaks on the lobes that turn into wear streaks that take the cam out. It just depends where it falls and sticks / smears.

Keep us posted and pictured up. You have one of the best pictures of an empty head I have seen. you can tell a lot from looking at it (front / rear relationships and everything). It might show up somewhere else.

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Old December 10th, 2009, 21:36   #6
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I am very glad that my BHW has had extremely limited exposure to a 5w30 505.01 Castrol Professional OE. Most my oil changes were done with the older 5w40 TXT. I even added 5w40 TXT as a top off when I used the 5w30. I think the 5w40 is so much better for our engines. I am using the 5w40 505.01 Pentosin, but if it were not available, I would probably join the TDT users or go to Amsoil DEO.
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Old December 10th, 2009, 22:20   #7
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When you look at your center bearing, notice that the oil slot to the front is pretty well covered. That stops the oil supply from running out over the followers. I would say that gives #5 (#3 intake ?) very little oiling and a greater chance at failure. There are many factors going on at the same time. That Is why we need to change several things to approach a patched up engine with more chance to see high mileages.

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Old December 10th, 2009, 22:24   #8
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Charlie, thanks for the time to post the rebuild and the pictures of the worn parts. I have been running M1 TDT and 2 oz of ZDDP+ in my B5.5 since my BS upgrade 20K ago. The car runs pretty nice, but I have no maintenance history before 50K.

I plan on pulling my valve cover this Spring/Summer when the car gets near 100K. Hopefully, things will be good, but if not, I will pick your brain for the details of this work you have just done.

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Old December 10th, 2009, 23:11   #9
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Charlie, could you please post the part number and country of origin (and possibly the date code, coded like this: Year number in the center and dots representing months are around it) on your cylinder head? It's stamped on the front side of the head. In your case it is on the side of the dipstick tube. Thanks.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 05:43   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieT
.... I know you prefer Pentosin 5w40.. good stuff.
BUT.... If it was only available in 5w30, would you run a 505.01 5w30 oil ?? or would you run a 5w40 non-505.01 ?
ie, do you think 5w30 is too thin our TDIs ?
I think 5w30 is too thin for ANY Volkswagen, personally. Gas or diesel. And I think this is partially to blame for all the 1.8t engines sludging up: thinner oil means more oil use, they are predisposed to use some oil anyways, low oil means oil sludging, and once it starts it just gets worse and worse as it snowballs into Fail.

I find it comical that all the manuals state 5w40, yet the dealers sell 5w30 now . What REALLY is dumb, as that even the CR engines state 5w40, yet there is no 5w40 507.00 oil anywhere I can find in this country. At least those have a different valve drive.

Either way, I have far too many PDs running around here that have always had 5w40 505.01 oil in them (either TXT or PentoHP2) that have had ZERO problems. So I am not too worried.

So your question of which do I feel is more important, 5w40 or 505.01? I would have to say I would pick the 5w40 first, based on what I have seen (or NOT seen) here on this site and in the shop.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 06:39   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer
I think 5w30 is too thin for ANY Volkswagen, personally. Gas or diesel. And I think this is partially to blame for all the 1.8t engines sludging up: thinner oil means more oil use, they are predisposed to use some oil anyways, low oil means oil sludging, and once it starts it just gets worse and worse as it snowballs into Fail.

I find it comical that all the manuals state 5w40, yet the dealers sell 5w30 now . What REALLY is dumb, as that even the CR engines state 5w40, yet there is no 5w40 507.00 oil anywhere I can find in this country. At least those have a different valve drive.

Either way, I have far too many PDs running around here that have always had 5w40 505.01 oil in them (either TXT or PentoHP2) that have had ZERO problems. So I am not too worried.

So your question of which do I feel is more important, 5w40 or 505.01? I would have to say I would pick the 5w40 first, based on what I have seen (or NOT seen) here on this site and in the shop.
This is in fun.

I have heard. Before they get it from me they will have to pry it out of my cold dead fingers I have often wondered what things were on your list of good shop practices. LOL
Everyone say. YES!!!! High five and the whole nine yards.

Add 5W-40 to oilhammers list of the 1/4 million mile VW tips.
And you heard it here (you probably have said it ten times). It just so needs to be stressed I went through all that.

Thanks
eddif

PS: Want to bump that to 15W-50 for Gulf Coast?
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Old December 11th, 2009, 10:32   #12
CharlieT
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hid3... some info for you




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Old December 11th, 2009, 11:08   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer
I think 5w30 is too thin for ANY Volkswagen, personally. Gas or diesel. And I think this is partially to blame for all the 1.8t engines sludging up: thinner oil means more oil use, they are predisposed to use some oil anyways, low oil means oil sludging, and once it starts it just gets worse and worse as it snowballs into Fail.

I find it comical that all the manuals state 5w40, yet the dealers sell 5w30 now . What REALLY is dumb, as that even the CR engines state 5w40, yet there is no 5w40 507.00 oil anywhere I can find in this country. At least those have a different valve drive.

Either way, I have far too many PDs running around here that have always had 5w40 505.01 oil in them (either TXT or PentoHP2) that have had ZERO problems. So I am not too worried.

So your question of which do I feel is more important, 5w40 or 505.01? I would have to say I would pick the 5w40 first, based on what I have seen (or NOT seen) here on this site and in the shop.
I am at a sort of crossroads on this issue. I have been using Elf Excellium DID 5w40 and have 4 litres of it left from 36 litres that I purchased. The new Total that replaced the Elf Excellium DID is 5w30 Quartz INEO MC3. I would like to stay with the same oil, but would also like to stay with 5w40. What are my choices?
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Old December 11th, 2009, 11:31   #14
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[quote=oilhammer]....Once again, in your case confirmed wrong oil use (thank you dealer! ).

AWA, many TDIers still use 5W-30. Go figure.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer
However, while I also am a firm believer in the proper 5w40 oil use....
X2, Mobil 1 ESP FM 5W-40. Many TDIers in the forum doubt that the factory fill oil was SAE 5W-40. This oil viscosity grade is even stated in the supplementary owner's manual, Booklet 3.5 P.4, and use only SAE 5W-30 if SAE 5W-40 oil is not available. Go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oilhammer
....The oil heat exchanger passes heat from the oil to the coolant.....
Isn't the coolant heats up the oil in the OHE
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Old December 11th, 2009, 11:34   #15
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I would use the 5w30 in the winter and switch to the 5w40 thereafter, I kinda think OH's recommendation is probably a good one.
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