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Fuels & Lubricants Discussion all about Fuels & Lubricants. synthetic oil, conventional oil, brands, change intervals, diesel grades, gelling and such debated items like that. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed. This forum is NOT for the discussion of biodiesel and other alternative fuels.

View Poll Results: Which AMSOIL?
Premium API CJ-4 Diesel Oil (DEO) 100 28.25%
European Car Formula Motor Oil (AFL) 254 71.75%
Voters: 354. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 26th, 2006, 01:17   #196
Drivbiwire
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Yes a 0WXX would surpass the 5w40, again all you have to do is look at the first number.

The problem is that unless an oil has a VW 506.01 certification NO 30 Weights oils can be used in ANY TDI OF ANY YEAR.

The 10w30 is wrong in both viscosity requirements, too thick for cold start-ups, too thin once the engine reaches operating temperature since it is not properly additized under the 506.01 specification.

DB
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Old September 26th, 2006, 06:14   #197
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This chart compares a 5w-40 synthetic to 10w-30/15w-40 conventional oils, so it's somewhat misleading.

Due to the slope of their relative viscosity/temp curves, a synthetic 10w-30 will actually be THINNER on startup than a synthetic 5w-40 in moderately cold conditions. Keep in mind the first number, ie the CCS (cold crank simulator) viscosity, is tested at temps far below 0F. In the case of a 5w, it's tested @ -22F and in the case of a 10w, it's tested @ -13F. Once you start heating up a 5w-40 and a 10w-30, the 10w-30 will thin more quickly since it's going to be a 30wt at operating temp. At moderately cold temps > 0F, the 10w-30 will actually be thinner to start with.

Having said all this, the Amsoil 10w-30 is NOT suitable for PD engines, however it's fine for cold weather use in older TDI engines as a substitute to the Amsoil 10w-40 or 15w-40.

By the way, Hi Pete...hope all's well with you!

Tooslick
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Old September 26th, 2006, 06:23   #198
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AutoUnion,

To answer your questions:

I think it would be better than the AFL in any non-PD engine - specifically in terms of valvetrain wear and oil consumption

A 0w-30/VW 506.01 rated oil would be preferred in very cold weather. I haven't seen enough data in the VW 507.00 stuff yet to determine how well it holds up in this application.

Amsoil has various suppliers for their PAO and Ester basestocks, including ExxonMobil and Hatco Corp. The purchase additives from Lubrizol, Infineum and a number of other suppliers such as Roh Max

Andy,

Data sheets looks about like I'd expect - thanks for posting!...The CCS temp at -30C and HT/HS viscosity would indicate they're using a thicker basestock blend than in the AFL/5w-40. (This is necessary to meet all the HD diesel applications.) Also looks like an excellent "high mileage" oil for worn gas engines....

TS

Last edited by TwoSlick; September 26th, 2006 at 06:31.
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Old September 26th, 2006, 06:38   #199
tditom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire
Yes a 0WXX would surpass the 5w40, again all you have to do is look at the first number.

The problem is that unless an oil has a VW 506.01 certification NO 30 Weights oils can be used in ANY TDI OF ANY YEAR...
Even an oil with VW505.00 rating (Castrol 0W30) in a pre-PD? If it has the 505.00, I believe it is sufficient.

DB please explain. TIA.
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Old September 26th, 2006, 07:33   #200
newbeetleman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoSlick
This chart compares a 5w-40 synthetic to 10w-30/15w-40 conventional oils, so it's somewhat misleading.

Due to the slope of their relative viscosity/temp curves, a synthetic 10w-30 will actually be THINNER on startup than a synthetic 5w-40 in moderately cold conditions. Keep in mind the first number, ie the CCS (cold crank simulator) viscosity, is tested at temps far below 0F. In the case of a 5w, it's tested @ -22F and in the case of a 10w, it's tested @ -13F. Once you start heating up a 5w-40 and a 10w-30, the 10w-30 will thin more quickly since it's going to be a 30wt at operating temp. At moderately cold temps > 0F, the 10w-30 will actually be thinner to start with.

Having said all this, the Amsoil 10w-30 is NOT suitable for PD engines, however it's fine for cold weather use in older TDI engines as a substitute to the Amsoil 10w-40 or 15w-40.

By the way, Hi Pete...hope all's well with you!

Tooslick
I agree with what you said here and I have used it in my car....although only for a short time. I now use the European formula 5w-40 though...
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Old September 26th, 2006, 07:53   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drivbiwire
The problem is that unless an oil has a VW 506.01 certification NO 30 Weights oils can be used in ANY TDI OF ANY YEAR.
Why do you continue to make this incorrect statement? Look at the lowly 505.00 0w30 UOA's at ~15K miles from this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=137355

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon
So here's the latest update: sample taken last Friday at 14,600 miles since last change, 134,600 total miles on the engine.

Aluminum: 9,600: 3 14,600:3
Chromium 9,600: 1 14,600:1
Iron 9,600: 27 14,600:34
Copper 9,600: 2 14,600: 2
Lead 9,600: 4 14,600: 7
Tin 9,600: 3 14,600: 0
Molybdenum 9,600: 1 14,600: 1
Nickel 9,600: 1 14,600: 0
Maganese 9,600: 0 14,600: 0
Silver 9,600: 0 14,600: 0
Titanium 9,600: 0 14,600: 0
Potassium 9,600: 0 14,600: 0
Boron 9,600: 63 14,600: 48
Silicon 9,600: 3 14,600: 3
Sodium 9,600: 6 14,600: 6
Calcium 9,600: 1837 14,600: 2145
Magnesium 9,600: 97 14,600: 70
Phosphorus 9,600: 1027 14,600: 869
Zinc 9,600: 1288 14,600: 1048
Barium 9,600: 0 14,600: 0

Viscosity @ 210F 68.7
Flashpoint 420
Fuel <0.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insoluables (soot) 0.4
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Old September 26th, 2006, 11:54   #202
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I have been using Amsoil HD diesel 30 for 20 years. I just got the new 10W30/30, and it is not the same as the old ST 30. I am dropping it now for the new 5W40 CJ-4 for my Kubota and Lombardini. I have one gallon 10W30 left and no more, maybe its my imagination but the its not the same as the old 30. Neither is a 505.01, if I had a older diesel that could use a CF oil I would try their new 5W40 to be released October 1. Its a tad thicker than AFL.

That comparison interesting but that is a syn 5W40 oil compared to two conventional oils .
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Old September 26th, 2006, 19:32   #203
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Andy-- when will DEO be FS?

And... would this be more appropiate than AMO with bypass filters for ALH motors?
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Old September 26th, 2006, 21:08   #204
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Looks great on paper, but will it be OK without the sacred VW505.00 approval. Some non-PD oils like Mobil-1 0W-40 list the VW approval. I guess most non-PDs on the road are past the warrenty period.
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Old September 26th, 2006, 21:53   #205
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I believe the Amsoil 5w-40 can be ordered after Oct 1st....

The new CJ-4 additive chemistry is supposed to be superior to CI-4+, but I haven't seen actual test data that shows that. This oil would have marginally better pumping characteristics in cold weather, compared to the Amsoil 10w-40, but the 12 TBN, 10w-40 will probably last longer in service.

TS
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Old September 27th, 2006, 00:31   #206
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Amsoil HDD 5w30 is a CI-4 Plus-rated motor oil, which is supposedly almost halfway to being a 40-weight oil. It might be worth considering.
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Old September 27th, 2006, 02:47   #207
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TR,

The Series 3000, 5w-30 is going to be a bit thicker than the Amsoil 10w-30 under high temp, high shear rate conditions, due to it's much higher Viscosity Index, ie 174 vs 141 for the 10w-30/30wt, ACD product. Pumpability in very cold weather is also going to be better with the Amsoil 5w-30. It would be my choice for a cold climate. The main drawback to this product is the price, however the S3000 is certainly capable of going >>10,000 miles between changes and fuel efficiency will be a bit better than running an xw-40 grade.

TS
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Old September 27th, 2006, 20:00   #208
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Ted - you're welcome! The datasheet was a pre-release freebie from the Dallas regional meeting.

DEO isn't yet available for on-line ordering. It probably won't go 'live' on that system until the 1 Oct public release date. The ladies at the order line are taking back-orders for it, though. As of this morning it hadn't arrived at the Dallas warehouse. I guess it will arrive Monday morning, just in time for Carl and the crew to start shipping it.

TR - one of the issues discussed at the meeting in Dallas is demand for CJ-4. There's a HUGE pre-buy going on right now in the medium and large truck world. Truckers are ordering 2007 trucks with 2006 engines so they can let someone else debug the new systems...and pay the approximately $8000 for the particulate filter. CI-4+ will be the main HDEO spec until at least 2010 when PC-11/CK-4 is due. Lubrizol published these sales estimates for CJ-4: 10% or less in 2006, 25% max in 2007, and 50% max in 2008. http://www.lubrizol.com/CJ-4/default.asp

Indigo: I'm still torn. My favorite oil is still the 5W-30 HDD. I have about 75,000 B4 TDI miles on it. I'm just finishing my bypass filter install on my B4V and planned on HDD. I'll see how I feel after I get the VOA results on DEO.

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Old October 2nd, 2006, 22:22   #209
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Sigh...another 600 mile round-trip to the Dallas warehouse in the morning...gonna get some of this oil and a new filter...the bypass will have to wait another 10K or so miles...


As for my ride...she's not the prettiest TDI around, but she's got SOUL...and lots of room! (There are two 30-gallon drums rolled in first.)




Andy

Last edited by AndyH; October 2nd, 2006 at 22:29.
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Old October 2nd, 2006, 22:47   #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kier
Looks great on paper, but will it be OK without the sacred VW505.00 approval. Some non-PD oils like Mobil-1 0W-40 list the VW approval. I guess most non-PDs on the road are past the warrenty period.
We have more choices for 2003 and earlier TDIs, as we aren't tied specifically to 505.00 for warranty the way the PD owners are. We can select 505.00, ACEA, and (last) API CD/CF for minimum warranty service requirements. Most of the owner's manuals for the earlier cars don't even list a VW spec in the front oil section you have to jump to the back for the 'driving in Europe' section. The main requirements are still the 5W-40 viscosity recommendation and the synthetic requirement.

Andy
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