Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

turbocharged798 said:

There is a reason people in NY heat with OIL and not with electric. Electric heat is extremely expensive and inefficient here. I do not see how heating your car with electric when you are not in it is more efficient. Heat pumps are useless when its below 0.

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Electric heat is expensive, but not inefficient. You're absolutely correct that the expense is the primary consideration. That's why pretty much everyone on my road heats (at least partly) with wood. The wood is so plentiful it grows on trees around here . Heat pumps can work great in super cold weather- you just need the right kind of heat pump. A sufficiently sized heat pump that can pull heat from the ground or a battery pack/motor that is @ 40°F will do much better than one attempting to pull heat from 0° air.

oilhammer said:

Every time Mazda came up with a "new" rotary engine, they said they solved the problems of the previous ones. And they never did. It is like when GM says the new Corvette won't pop creak and rattle over bumps on cold days because they have solved those problems.
Some problems are just inherent to the base design concept, and the best you can do is minimize them, but never eliminate them. Wankel engines use lubricant oil. Fiberglass bodied sports cars creak and pop in the cold. Just the way it is.
But I applaud Mazda for trying, and I am happy to see them mostly out from under Ford's thumb. One of the best non-Volkswagens I have ever owned was a Mazda B2000. 404k miles and a deer is what took it off the road.

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Since the rotary engine would only be used on trips outside of say 50 miles when the battery is depleted that poses a different situation. For most people the average commute is 50 miles or less. The rotary engine is only used when you drive out of town to a location well over 25 miles away one way. That means that you can put up with a little oil burning as long as it passes emissions tests. In its lifetime it might only run 80,000 miles out of the cars 250,000. When not running the car is carrying a lighter gas engine and wastes less electricity to do so. It is also smaller thus leaving more room for cargo. Obviously this doesn't fit everybody's needs but what vehicle does?

A micro turbine hybrid drivetrain could be interesting too. Like the Ariel Hipercar concept.

gulfcoastguy said:

Since the rotary engine would only be used on trips outside of say 50 miles when the battery is depleted that poses a different situation. For most people the average commute is 50 miles or less. The rotary engine is only used when you drive out of town to a location well over 25 miles away one way. That means that you can put up with a little oil burning as long as it passes emissions tests. In its lifetime it might only run 80,000 miles out of the cars 250,000. When not running the car is carrying a lighter gas engine and wastes less electricity to do so. It is also smaller thus leaving more room for cargo. Obviously this doesn't fit everybody's needs but what vehicle does?

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Using a compact, lightweight, smooth rotary to backup a battery in a Mazda is intriguing and probably would work better than a BMW i3 which is not too shabby.

The market for these cars is still minuscule and, to me, somewhat problematic. See https://www.greencarreports.com/new...-opposition-to-trumps-epa-fuel-economy-freeze

"Eight governors from states including Texas, Nebraska, Mississippi, North Dakota, and Maine signed a letter expressing support for the proposed freeze and said market forces would support more fuel-efficient vehicles without regulation.

MUST READ: GM to expand Chevy Bolt EV sales, bring battery production to US

"Government undermines both goals when it enacts policies that pit environmental preservation against free enterprise, hindering free markets, propping-up inferior solutions, and ultimately reducing prosperity," the governors wrote."

I'm agnostic about EV's but understand the challenges with the current price of fuel going lower and the current costs of tech. My daughter replaced her 2003 Civic LX with a 2018 EX with the NA 2.0 liter, but we test drove the new Honda Insight and although a bit plain, was a nice tech showcase and drove smoothly.

TM

turbobrick240 said:

Electric heat is expensive, but not inefficient.

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LOL... yep... by definition resistance electric heat is 100% efficient. No more. No less.

Also lots of heat pumps that operate great to 5F now-a-days. If R-744 ever becomes a thing that goes even lower.

I sure hope GM can step up production of the Bolt. The car that was supposed to be the Model 3 killer was outsold by it 14:1 in September.

Here's a look at US EV sales this year:
https://insideevs.com/september-2018-plug-in-electrical-vehicle-sales-report-card/

nwdiver said:

LOL... yep... by definition resistance electric heat is 100% efficient. No more. No less.

Also lots of heat pumps that operate great to 5F now-a-days. If R-744 ever becomes a thing that goes even lower.

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Not it's not, if 80% of the electric being produced is making to the heater then it 80% efficient.

turbocharged798 said:

Not it's not, if 80% of the electric being produced is making to the heater then it 80% efficient.

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Its useless to talk sense when someone is convinced.

Tin Man said:

Its useless to talk sense when someone is convinced.

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I just go by the facts... inefficiency is heat... => electric RESISTANCE heaters are 100% 'efficient'...

That's what makes these labels so funny; Yep... physics. Electric furnaces are ~100% - ~100% efficient. Think. If it was 80% efficient.... where is the 20% going? The only way for electrical energy to 'escape' is to become..... heat.

turbocharged798 said:

Not it's not, if 80% of the electric being produced is making to the heater then it 80% efficient.

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The heater itself is 100% efficient. The system that produces and transmits the electricity clearly has some losses. Likewise, the oil rigs, refineries, tanker ships, pipelines, and trucks that produce and deliver heating oil have significant losses.

turbobrick240 said:

The heater itself is 100% efficient. The system that produces and transmits the electricity clearly has some losses. Likewise, the oil rigs, refineries, tanker ships, pipelines, and trucks that produce and deliver heating oil have significant losses.

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Uh, nothing is "100%" anything. Example: some of the heat remains inside the heater, ha ha.

Tin Man said:

Uh, nothing is "100%" anything. Example: some of the heat remains inside the heater, ha ha.

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Yep... nothing is 100% efficient... entropy demands some percentage become... heat

Which is why 'efficiency' stickers on electric heaters are funny. Since the objective is heat it's either 100% efficient or 100% inefficient depending on your perspective.

Heat stays in the heater until it escapes into the house

turbobrick240 said:

The heater itself is 100% efficient. The system that produces and transmits the electricity clearly has some losses. Likewise, the oil rigs, refineries, tanker ships, pipelines, and trucks that produce and deliver heating oil have significant losses.

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This is how I choose to think about energy transfer. It was taught in college thermodynamics too.

Looks like there is going to be some competition. Good.

Nikola Tre is a hydrogen semi for Europe
Nikola has announced a third fuel-cell semi

"The Tre is similar in power — if not in exterior design — to its American siblings. It'll offer from 500 up to 1,000 horsepower, with up to 2,000 pound-feet of torque. It'll be available in 6x4 or 6x2 configurations. Driving range between fill-ups will be between about 310 to 745 miles, depending on how it's configured."

Atlis is a new one, looking for investors. Concentrating on the pickup truck market looks like.

My Leaf got totaled about 6 weeks ago. I got rear ended while driving 77 in a 70.
I purchased an early P85 and will be flying out to pick it up 1 week from today.
I need to do a TCO calculation for my ownership, I’m not certain, but I believe I came out ahead financially.

dremd said:

My Leaf got totaled about 6 weeks ago. I got rear ended while driving 77 in a 70.
I purchased an early P85 and will be flying out to pick it up 1 week from today.
I need to do a TCO calculation for my ownership, I’m not certain, but I believe I came out ahead financially.

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What's a P85?

P85 was the original designation for what is now the Tesla S sedan.

kjclow said:

P85 was the original designation for what is now the Tesla S sedan.

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P85 is a specific version of the Model S sedan, specifically Performance rear wheel drive with the 85 kWh battery back. They're in the neighborhood of 420 HP and 265 miles of range.

Other variations of the Model S from that era include the 40, 60, 85, 85D (dual motor all wheel drive), P85D (performance dual motor) and P85D (underline denotes Ludicrous mode).

dremd said:

My Leaf got totaled about 6 weeks ago. I got rear ended while driving 77 in a 70.
I purchased an early P85 and will be flying out to pick it up 1 week from today.
I need to do a TCO calculation for my ownership, I’m not certain, but I believe I came out ahead financially.

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You're going to love it. We've put 12,000 miles on our Model 3 so far in three months.

aja8888 said:

What's a P85?

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In the early years of Tesla Model S it was the top of the range with the longest range and the quickest 0-60 (4.2 seconds official, typically 4.0). Then the P85D came out and so on and so forth. When mine was new it was one of the quickest 4 doors (stock) available.

What's a good used Model S going for now days?

Jason

I just saw an article about a Tesla cpo model S going for $35k.

There's a bunch on cars.com in the low to mid $30s. Lowest miles I saw in that price range was around 50k and as high as 120k.

SilverGhost said:

What's a good used Model S going for now days?

Jason

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I paid Mid 20's But mine is a 2012 with 84,000 miles.

SilverGhost said:

What's a good used Model S going for now days?

Jason

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https://ev-cpo.com/hunter/ is one of the best sites for Tesla hunting, both new and used.*

*not a replacement for cars.com, autotrader.com, etc.

I got back with Model S today early Am.
Round trip (from my bed back to my bed) was 49 hours. That includes driving to airport, flying, a night in a hotel, and a 3 hour Smithsonian stop. 1,200 miles 6 supercharger stops about 5 hours charging, drove tru record snow and generally had quite an adventure.
I love the car, but it feels a bit like a dream, maybe a rental or something. It just feels way to nice to belong to me.

dremd said:

I got back with Model S today early Am.
Round trip (from my bed back to my bed) was 49 hours. That includes driving to airport, flying, a night in a hotel, and a 3 hour Smithsonian stop. 1,200 miles 6 supercharger stops about 5 hours charging, drove tru record snow and generally had quite an adventure.
I love the car, but it feels a bit like a dream, maybe a rental or something. It just feels way to nice to belong to me.

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Congratulations! I've had mine for ~6 years and it still hasn't gotten old. Even after ~140k miles it still drives like day 1!

How much of a buffer did you have on your supercharger stops? Leaving with a lower state of charge really cuts down on charging time.

I aimed for the car to estimate 20% when I arrived at next stop. However i based my speed so that my estimated 15 minute range was slightly higher than the remaining distance. I typically rolled in with 3-5%. One leg that was 62-63 mph, another it was 94-95 mph, but typically was 77-79 mph

dremd said:

I got back with Model S today early Am.
Round trip (from my bed back to my bed) was 49 hours. That includes driving to airport, flying, a night in a hotel, and a 3 hour Smithsonian stop. 1,200 miles 6 supercharger stops about 5 hours charging, drove tru record snow and generally had quite an adventure.
I love the car, but it feels a bit like a dream, maybe a rental or something. It just feels way to nice to belong to me.

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Congratulations! The first Tesla I really put any miles on was a 2013 Model S P85 rented from Turo. Glad you had a good trip.

Next time you're in the DC area, give me a shout! I'd love to catch up for a beer or coffee and talk about cars.