VW TDI Diesel Gets 120 MPG on one Gal of Diesel with CNG blend!!

Here is a email that show what others are paying for home refueling.
Would you post what you pay for Diesel on this test I payed $4.00 a GAL
Hello Bob, I just wanted to say thank you so much for the great job you did on our two Audi A4 CNG conversion kits. We are coming up on a year of use with them and my two sons are away at college one in Madison Wisconsin and one in Minneapolis Minnesota. They absolutely love the fact that they have to pay a little over a dollar a gallon for CNG especially on a college budget.

I'm so glad that I found you on the Internet because having five VW's and two Audi's I didn't know who would know how to put on CNG systems . It's been great having bifuel systems so when we run out of Cng we can just run on straight gasoline even though it's much more expensive. I'm looking forward to having you do our other automobiles because I'm very happy with how you made sure the cars were perfect before they left your shop. I'm looking forward to getting our own home Cng pump so that I can take advantage of natural gas prices at $.49 a gallon right out of the line coming to our house.

Be prepared for another phone call soon as I'm going to need the rest of my VW's done in the near future Bob. Thank you so much again I appreciate your professional work.

Dr. Curt Draeger
Bob Mann

Um, Bob, there is NOTHING in that email from that guy about the actual cost of home refueling. Only a short reference to what he thinks the cost should be for the CNG only, 49 cents per GGE.

People want to know what a home refueling kit costs, installation cost of the kit, and what the running cost is.

People want to know what a home refueling kit costs, installation cost of the kit, and what the running cost is.

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There might be a discrepancy in that CNGVW is mentioning $.49 per gallon, which could be be different than $0.49 per GGE. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, but the $0.49 cannot be per GGE, since a GGE is over 1 therm of natural gas, and I'm not aware of anywhere where the price of natural gas is that cheap. I just got some flyers from some alternate NG company that wanted to give me a fixed rate for NG of around $0.50/therm, but that's just the gas cost, not including the distribution and other charges that are in a typical home bill. With all those, it is currently around $0.80/therm, at least where I am.

Wksg said:

There might be a discrepancy in that CNGVW is mentioning $.49 per gallon, which could be be different than $0.49 per GGE. Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, but the $0.49 cannot be per GGE, since a GGE is over 1 therm of natural gas, and I'm not aware of anywhere where the price of natural gas is that cheap. I just got some flyers from some alternate NG company that wanted to give me a fixed rate for NG of around $0.50/therm, but that's just the gas cost, not including the distribution and other charges that are in a typical home bill. With all those, it is currently around $0.80/therm, at least where I am.

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Your math is wrong 1GGE=114,118.8 BTUs =1.14 Therms this is the right number and my math was based on a $1.00 a GGE so what is your point!!
in the DR email he did say what his cost was!!

here is a site to help you.
http://www.cngprices.com/cng_links.php

Here is a site for pricing at the street pumps with all the tax included.
http://www.altfuelprices.com/

I know you Biodiesel guy do not want to here it on CNG but there was a time when Biodiesel was a joke.

Bob Mann

Fine if you can get ahead of the curve, but start running every car and semi truck in America on natural gas and see what happens to the price of natural gas.

I thought the whole point was to find ways to broadbase our options for fuel while things such as renewable energy, battery tech, and other options become more feasible, economically and environmentally? Who really thinks we can keep putting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere indefinitely without fatal consequences? I would prefer the planet not revert to Venus-like conditions, lol. (I'm not inviting discussion on that last statement, I realize some don't believe what I believe.)

Even if cng prices did go up, if it could feasibly be adapted to/integrated in autos it would be a win. I guess those who just use cng for home use would think it would be unfair, though, if their prices went up due to circumstances not involving them...wait, that's diesel .

VW diesel gets 12,000 miles per gallon of diesel on a biodiesel blend.

Lug_Nut said:

No conversion kit, no cargo space loss, a cost of 8 cents per mile (because I buy retail with road use fuel tax included) or 2.5 cents per mile (for home brew).
p.s.: It's spelled conversion

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That's some funny stuff.

So since I'm only about 30 miles away in Cambridge I went and checked the car out. Bob had me drive it, I would compare the car drivability-wise the same as any other MKIV TDI you would get in. Power was comparable to something over a chipped car. It's very smooth, and if you blindly just got in the car and drove it, you wouldn't know it had the CNG other than the extra power, much like you wouldn't know the difference if you were running bio. Difference is no gross odors like veggie, no messes from home brew, just a little pump outside the house. I thought it was cool, only thing stopping me right now is the initial cost to get it going. But as I said before I think the costs would be covered in about a year from what I've figured. Fuel is easy to pay for on a week to week basis but as a lump sum it will take some saving. I'm fortunate enough to have gas at the house so this is a realistic option for me. I think the point is being missed here, he seemed to be a pretty good guy and not a salesman. Just sharing results of the project much like you see all over the boards so I don't know why everyone seems to have an issue with this.

CNGVW said:

VW TDI Diesel Gets 120 MPG on one Gal of Diesel with CNG blend!!
I will give the math up front. 2001 VW TDI 129 K using my new CNG blend test system.
Round trip 90 % Highway 75-80 MPH.
60 Miles round trip used .51 Gal of Diesel and 1.2 GAL (GGE) of CNG yes I have the slips.
That is a 60% blend of CNG it has very smooth power to boot.
The EGT never went over 990F on long uphill pulls.
Using this system should give you a 70% reduce in fuel cost per mile traveled
If I do the math right here on an average a TDI gets 45 MPG at $4 a GAL that is 11.2 cents costs per mile traveled.
Using a CNG blend system it cost 03.3 cents per mile traveled on Diesel. CNG cost per mile traveled is
.02 cents at $1.00 a GAL (GGE). If I did the math right someone please check it that is a cost of
05.2 cents per Mile traveled a savings of 58.2 %. I pay for home fueling now .40 cents a GAL that should push me in the 80% saving on fuel cost.
I have over 1000 miles on this test system no codes just works.
Bob Mann

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my math may be off a little, but the conversion equivalent for CCF (how we pay for the NG at home is CCF= approximately .91 gallons of fuel (LP as the volume conversion) which in indianapolis for vectren i pay on average .99 per CCF in the winter. Then that pust me at .0564 cents per mile. I drive 20,000 + per year on average, the cost of the PHILL and the conversion should be about $5000+ including me hooking up the NG line. plus a $2000 rebuild for the Phill CNG compressor after 8000 hours (8hours a night x 5 nights a week = 2080 hours a year divided by recommended rebuild =3.8 years for usuable life of compressor before rebuild) so in short $7000 / .0564 cents per mile = 124,113 miles / 20000 miles per year = 6.2 years pay off amount and then another rebuild. and so on. plus $3.3819 per 60 miles/$5.45 per 60 miles (4.09 per gal of diesel right now) and based on 45 mpg average = 62% 100%-62% = 38% cost savings or 62.1 mpg for CMG/Diesel mix. my math may be off but it would feasibly pay for itself but in a very long time. There is a $1000 tax credit for exploring alternative energy so it could realistically pay for itself in about 5.3 years at $6000 after the tax credit.

just my $0.02.

I personally dont have an issue with the CNG and am considering it, The whole factor is how long does it take to recover the cost of the system. as Diesel prices rise then the payoff timeframe will decrease. as an update to my last post. 1.11 CCF = 1 gal of diesel so that will throw my numbers off a smidge but not much. it would actually make the payoff a little shorter but not by much

I don't want to stifle the topic, but need to mention that Bob needs to register as a vendor, per TdiClub policies. Posting customer testimonials is definitely in the 'active vendor' category of actions.

Bob, you must submit a vendor registration application by Sunday evening. I'm going to temporarily lock the thread until you have.

Nick, unlock the thread at your convenience.

CNGVW has submitted a vendor fax. I won't be able to process it until Tuesday at the earliest.

Thread is unlocked for non-commercial content. You'll be free to post commercial content in classifieds as soon as Brian is able to process the form.

Thanks to Brian for quick response.

Bob - Any idea how this system would fit up on Mk6 CR engines. I was in Thailand in Jan. Lots of big trucks (ie diesels) run conversions there, but I believe they burn propane. A number of passenger cars as well.

The key beyond having a good vehicle control system would be the home fuel setup. And a safe process for fueling up. If I read correctly that the gas is stored at ~3600 psi this will be no small order. Is the fuel stored as a liquid or a gas? As the article points out Boon Pickins advocated shifting all transport to NG. I remember when Pickens went public with his plan. Then the idea stopped getting air play. Any idea what slowed development down? Have you got a home fuel set up?

Hello We have them working on DuraMax,s My friend at http://www.greenman.biz/
Build a system for trains and big rigs. I feel LG is a long way off for a fuel supple for our road vehicles.
Very problem matic. The facts are I have found a very simple way to add CNG to a TDI at a low cost.
If you have CNG near you a street pump this will work for you. The home fueling is the best way to go but it takes money up front and need to have gas at home or work. The return on investment could be in a year. When did ROI come into play here? What is the ROI for your new stove, or your toilet? I know a group here to not use it because the through it my way.
Bob Mann

Your math is wrong 1GGE=114,118.8 BTUs =1.14 Therms this is the right number and my math was based on a $1.00 a GGE so what is your point!!

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I was just trying to figure out how you got to $0.40/gal for your home fueling setup, that you mentioned in your original post. It seems the best I could do would be around $1, so I wondered what I was missing.

The link you supplied shows CNG at $2.64/gge around me (there are a couple filling stations, I've seen them before. I'm surprised at how much it is, I thought it would be less.

I know you Biodiesel guy do not want to here it on CNG but there was a time when Biodiesel was a joke.

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Actually, I'm not a biodiesel guy, in that I've never actually used it. Made some myself a while ago though. Sometime I'll probably try it. But I am in the renewable energy business!

Bob is the real thing:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CNGBOB
You can google BOB MANN INVENTOR as well. He apparently has invented some sort of detection devices for explosives??

Bob doesn't bother to proofread (CONVERTION!!) what he posts so he comes off as an idjet and when you ask a pointed question (like cost or which tanks he uses) he thinks you are attacking him.

Perhaps now that he is a vendor, He will devote the proper amount of time/effort to his posts so that they will make sense.

Looking at the comments on the youtube link, he gets $3000 for a conversion on a VW GASSER (not TDI) and that price is for a used CNG tank.

Bob Mann, I wish you luck and I'd like to see this TDI/CNG thing catch on.

Bill

Bob is the real thing:

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Yes, I read those before, and one has to have respect for Bob and guys like him who get stuff done. Surely I do, in fact I work with guys like that. Usually I wish I was more like that!

But I do always try to drill through the numbers. I have a 120 mile daily commute and if I could save 50 or 80% on my commuting fuel costs, I would be one of the first to sign up. It looks like I possibly could save 25 or 30%, if I could get $1/gge CNG. But that looks impossible around here, except for home fueling which looks to be a little pricey up front.

I'd like to get a home compressor that would refuel a car tank (does it take all night to do that?) from the NG line that heats my home.

Besides the one that you get from Honda (Do you have to buy a car to get one form Honda?) where can I get such a compressor and how much does it cost? Will 110VAC power it, or do I need 220VAC?

I don't want one from a junkyard (used is fine, scrapped is not) and I don't want to repurpose a scuba tank compressor or some such crap. This needs to be of commercial/residential/consumer quality, not a kludge.

Thanks,

Bill

Just to update the miles use on the tank of Diesel.

I have gone 200 miles on Diesel and CNG blend and the gauge just moved.
Bob Mann

CNGVW said:

Just to update the miles use on the tank of Diesel.

I have gone 200 miles on Diesel and CNG blend and the gauge just moved.
Bob Mann

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Bob, you can't go by the gauge since it is definitely not linear in it's movement. I will say that it typically take mine 100-150 miles to move off of full, but it's just not a good yardstick comparing mine to yours or anyone else.

Bob - Let me see if I understand the home fuel system concept -

This would only work for homes that have natural gas not propane fuel. The system would tap into a the home's gas supply. The gas would be routed to an oil less compressor and pressurized to a storage receiver at high pressure. The in car tanks would be replenished from the storage receiver. Gas costs to the home system owner would be measured at the home's gas meter + the required electricity to operate the compressor. Sounds like a small compressor would minimize the electric and gas main draws but would need to be left on for some time to replenish the fuel receiver. I can see municipal building code folks and insurance companies having a field day with this idea, but with careful engineering, I suspect these issues can be overcome. Moving the storage tank outside the home would probably take down most of the risks.

Did I cover the bases or have I missed something. Any estimates on the cost of a home fuel system? Have you already tangled with codes folks on this subject?

Great CNG links in the google doc you shared earlier.

man my needle does not move untill i have 200 or more miles. lol.

I have been driving this car for a while it never hanged up in the full mark. I am going to drive it for 1000 miles like this with CNG blend to see what we get to the tank.
For home refueling there certifications and form that must be filled out and inspection just like a NG grill install. This is nothing new.
Bob Mann
Bob Mann

CNGVW said:

I have been driving this car for a while it never hanged up in the full mark. I am going to drive it for 1000 miles like this with CNG blend to see what we get to the tank.
For home refueling there certifications and form that must be filled out and inspection just like a NG grill install. This is nothing new.
Bob Mann
Bob Mann

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Thanks

The amount of electrical energy it takes to compress a bunch of gas from atmospheric pressure to nearly 4000 psi is substantial.
We are talking kilowatts here.
Remember to factor this into the bottom line as it likely exceeds the equipment costs over its useful life.

From what I've read about CNG home filling stations is that they are expensive to buy and install even with tax credits, run on 220v, and take hours to refill a tank. I think I read that the average fill rate is 1 GGE per hour or so, around 130 cubic feet per hour on average.

I haven't found any information on hours between rebuilds, cost of a rebuild, if the owner can rebuild one himself, and what that cost is. Considering these are very high pressure compressers, nothing can be cheap about them.

BKmetz said:

From what I've read about CNG home filling stations is that they are expensive to buy and install even with tax credits, run on 220v, and take hours to refill a tank. I think I read that the average fill rate is 1 GGE per hour or so, around 130 cubic feet per hour on average.

I haven't found any information on hours between rebuilds, cost of a rebuild, if the owner can rebuild one himself, and what that cost is. Considering these are very high pressure compressers, nothing can be cheap about them.

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Thank you for the information Brian.

Bill

Bob,

You have a lot of interested parties here, but you keep displaying bits and pieces of information, leading to an incomplete picture.

You have obviously installed a home CNG compressor - what did it cost? If you (through some sort of certification) installed it yourself, what would it cost a layperson to have installed?

Natural gas in my neck of the woods is costed in either cubic metres or cubic feet. including the "delivery charge" from my local utility, I can "clock" my gas meter and measure exactly how much NG any of my gas appliances use (I used to work for the local gas utility, so my Stove, Dryer, Barbecue, Water Heater and Furnace run on natural gas. I know how much gas each of them use, and cost.

From the information you have provided, I cannot figure out what it would take to equip my home with a compressor, what it costs to run (in electricity), how much and how often it is to rebuild, nor the cost of the natural gas it would supply my car.

As someone well immersed in Natural gas and TDIs, I am very interested, but cannot make any meaningful calculations from the information you have so far provided (in order to make an educated decision).

Please supply these missing pieces of the puzzle.

Also, a picture of a notoriously inaccurate Jetta fuel gauge? The fuel gauge in my passat does not move until 600km on the tank - that "stat" is not helpful. - number of cu ft NG and gallons D2 vs # of miles driven please.

Thanks!