2004 Jetta dead - timing jump

Hey folks! I need your help/opinions.

I have a 2004 Jetta wagon (BEW engine) with 275k miles. Yesterday I was merging on to the highway, and while accelerating I hit a small bump - at which time I noticed the car had lost some power. It was still driving, but you could tell that if you wanted to accelerate more, it wasn't going to do it. I didn't notice any smoke or anything out of the rearview mirror. I was going about 50mph and was able to drive (up a hill) about 3/4 of a mile to a rest stop. When I was approaching the entrance of the rest stop, I pushed the clutch in to let the car coast, and the engine just died. It will crank over (sounds normal when cranking) but will not start (or even sound like it wants to start).

Car got towed to a dealership. The mechanic there says the timing belt shows signs where it's stripped in one section, so its obviously out of time, and since it's an interference engine, the valves are probably in bad shape so the head should be replaced.

The diagnosis of being off time seems to make sense. The timing belt was replaced 85k miles ago (about 4.5 years), but I guess it's not unheard of for them to fail early. I'm curious to hear what others think of the rest of the diagnosis. They sent me a quote that includes a new cylinder head, but not new pistons - and my assumption would be that if there was a collision inside the motor, both the valves and pistons would need replacing.

I live in CT and the car died in MA, so I have never been to this dealership and it's very unlikely I will have them perform the work if I do decide to do anything. I'm really just trying to decide if I want them or any other shop to investigate further, or if it's time to cut my losses with this car (which makes me very sad).

Thanks for your help!!

You won't know until the head comes off; the piston protrusion needs to be checked and the crowns inspected. If both check out then yes, the damage is PROBABLY confined to the head. It's not uncommon at all for the pistons and rods to survive such an event.

The head can often be reworked (new valves, lifters, etc) but it's very important that it's done right. In particular if the valves are not replaced there's a very significant risk of a valve stem fracture down the road due to the stem being overstressed during the event; it usually happens some 10k miles later and when it does the valve drops in, rattles around inside the cylinder and usually destroys the piston and frequently the bore as well.

I just lost 8" of timing belt teeth, something got under my valve cover and locked up the belt momentarily. The symptoms you describe are exactly the same as mine were. I was 65k miles into my belt. At 85k you were 5k miles over the change interval. The BEW engine is 80k not 100k.

I have the head off and sitting on my , bench however I have not had a chance to pull the cam yet, or measure piston protrusion. That's my project for this weekend. I have sourced another engine so in my case I'm going to swap engines.

.

Don't throw in the towel on the valves yet. I have run into such situations where a length of timing belt teeth were torn out and the engine jumped time but, not enough to mash the valves. Pure luck, I guess. Examining the lifters should tell the story. If you see spider cracking on the lifter surfaces or worse then it is time to pull the head.

In my experience, there have not been many times where the pistons/rods were rendered unusable in a timing belt break incident but, it can happen.

Yup. Get it out of the dealer's mitts.

Here is the choice of Connecticut trusted mechanics:
Connecticut

People's Auto
23 Field Rd
Somers, CT 06071
(860) 763-0711
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.p...Number=1016285

Keith St. Laurent (meganuke)
Enfield, CT
KSL2112@yahoo.com
http://forums.tdiclub.com/member.php?u=13656


Maybe there is a closer one in a neighboring state.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lucw8ALCkLtt79MMw9JOG1E_dX57-raBhbhIFdtHnEQ/edit?hl=en_US

Yes, get that second opinion. If the belt is in fact jumped or missing teeth, have it towed.

tdi_tim said:

Hey folks! I need your help/opinions.
I have a 2004 Jetta wagon (BEW engine) with 275k miles. Yesterday I was merging on to the highway, and while accelerating I hit a small bump - at which time I noticed the car had lost some power. It was still driving, but you could tell that if you wanted to accelerate more, it wasn't going to do it. I didn't notice any smoke or anything out of the rearview mirror. I was going about 50mph and was able to drive (up a hill) about 3/4 of a mile to a rest stop. When I was approaching the entrance of the rest stop, I pushed the clutch in to let the car coast, and the engine just died. It will crank over (sounds normal when cranking) but will not start (or even sound like it wants to start).
Car got towed to a dealership. The mechanic there says the timing belt shows signs where it's stripped in one section, so its obviously out of time, and since it's an interference engine, the valves are probably in bad shape so the head should be replaced.
The diagnosis of being off time seems to make sense. The timing belt was replaced 85k miles ago (about 4.5 years), but I guess it's not unheard of for them to fail early. I'm curious to hear what others think of the rest of the diagnosis. They sent me a quote that includes a new cylinder head, but not new pistons - and my assumption would be that if there was a collision inside the motor, both the valves and pistons would need replacing.
I live in CT and the car died in MA, so I have never been to this dealership and it's very unlikely I will have them perform the work if I do decide to do anything. I'm really just trying to decide if I want them or any other shop to investigate further, or if it's time to cut my losses with this car (which makes me very sad).
Thanks for your help!!

Click to expand...

The timing belt interval is 80k miles though. Screwed the pooch I am afraid.

Thank you for all of the very helpful comments, I really appreciate it. Sounds like there is reason to be somewhat optimistic.

Regarding the 80k service interval for the t-belt - I do have to say, I bought this car new, it was dealer serviced for much of it's life by a reputable dealership that I actually used to work for, and this is the first time in my life I've heard that the interval is 80k and not 100k. It's what the dealer told me at 90k miles when then did the first one, it's what the mechanic said when he did the 2nd one. Even this VW service interval document lists is at 100k:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/516/2004_All.pdf

I don't know if it changed at some point, but 100k was information I had been given.

tdi_tim said:

Thank you for all of the very helpful comments, I really appreciate it. Sounds like there is reason to be somewhat optimistic.

Regarding the 80k service interval for the t-belt - I do have to say, I bought this car new, it was dealer serviced for much of it's life by a reputable dealership that I actually used to work for, and this is the first time in my life I've heard that the interval is 80k and not 100k. It's what the dealer told me at 90k miles when then did the first one, it's what the mechanic said when he did the 2nd one. Even this VW service interval document lists is at 100k:

http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/516/2004_All.pdf

I don't know if it changed at some point, but 100k was information I had been given.

Click to expand...

I believe VW changed the interval. It was 100k.

http://www.idparts.com/high-mileage-timing-belt-kit-bew-p-5137.html

I'm not sure that it matters what Volkswagen listed as a maintenance interval. If yours failed at 85,000 miles, it is a real stretch to say 80,000 miles was a safe interval. I failed just under 80,000 miles, but somehow managed 105,000 on my first belt. My new maintenance interval is now around 60,000 miles. I'm not happy about it, but my option is to to sell the car.

As for bottom end damage, I would be looking for spider cracking on the top of the pistons and measure the piston protrusion above the deck of the block. There are values in the Bentley manual.

If you purchase a cylinder head, I think you will need a camshaft to go with it. it has something to do with wear of lifters and cams...don't quote me on this. Camshafts are relatively expensive, so verify that it is included.

My advice is to make sure you know what you are getting into. A cylinder head costs maybe $1500. Add shipping at you are at $1700. A complete timing belt kit needs to be in there as does a complete gasket kit. Cylinder head bolts are one-time use. A couple gallons of G12 coolant and some break-in oil, and you are starting to talk about a fair amount of cash, especially if you are paying someone to do the work. Be realistic up front on the cost of getting back on the road.

Yeah, for that kinda money you could just about get a good used engine.
Timing belt kit is not optional though!

Things have changed with time, that's for sure.

10 years ago if you jumped time the right thing to do was send off the head and have it re-worked. 5 years ago, maybe same deal. Now, probably not since you can usually find a wrecked car with a good engine, pull it, do a belt on it while it's on the stand before it goes into the car (easier access!) and spend less -- maybe a lot less, depending on how fortunate you are with the used engine sourcing. Yeah, swapping an engine is a pain in the backside BUT if you also have an aging clutch it winds up not being THAT much different in terms of effort if you decide to change the clutch at the same time......

Plus you get a bunch of known-good spares off the old engine (injectors, IP, turbo, etc) at the same time which you can either keep for yourself or sell to defray some of the cost. The IP alone is worth a material amount of coin if it's in good shape.

Hey folks! Just figured I'd update the thread here in case anyone else came across it.

In the end I decided to have the car fixed. As per JETaah's suggestion, I had Keith (meganuke) do the work. Job entailed replacing the cylinder head (and valve train), timing belt, water pump, tensioners, etc, etc. All of the parts were purchased at ID Parts, and Keith did a great job getting everything together. I did go with an AMC head, which I understand are a source of controversy, but considering the savings and the fact that I'm putting it on a bottom end that already has almost 300K miles, it seemed like the best choice. Time will tell.

Here's a photo of the belt:

Photo of one of the pistons


Damage to the valve train didn't seem as bad as some of the photos I've seen on here. Couple of the lifters are a little dimpled but not cracked. Valves look like they close all the way (though I realize that there could be unseen issues with them). Camshaft shows very little wear considering it's got almost 300k miles on it.

After doing some research, I figured out that the belt had been replaced in November 2012 when the car had 185k on it, so it was about 4.5 years old and had 90k miles on it. According to the VW service sheet, the belt should be inspected at 80k miles, and replaced at 100k. IMO the belt still looks pretty good, I'm not sure if a technician inspected it at 80k they would have suggested replacement. I spoke to the VW dealer that originally diagnosed the car when it died, and she was surprised to hear that people are suggesting replacement at 80k, as her documentation still showed a 100k interval. So with all of that said, I'll be replacing the belt at 80k miles or sooner going forward.

All in all, car currently runs excellent, and I'm very happy to have it back on the road.

Scared to ask what the bill was?

Me personally, I wouldn't have hesitated to put an ALH wagon back on the road.

It is a BEW wagon, but looks to be well taken care of and worth saving. Hope it delivers many more miles of service!