Clutch issue...replaced but more issues

BrownCWJ · Jun 21, 2017

The pedal is currently not connected; I removed the slave cylinder from the bell housing to eliminate that as a potential issue.

When I start the car, I can shift freely between gears, and the axles will rotate appropriately as I put it in gear, and they will stop as I go back into neutral.

I'm fairly certain the pressure plate is aligned correctly, too.

Is it possible that I shifted the clutch disc during installation both times? That doesn't seem too logical, as I used the centering tool (and the splines on the input shaft would have to line up with disk)?

BrownCWJ · Jun 21, 2017

I'm also confused about how I am able to shift between gears, without grinding, with no clutch used, but that the axles spin when I am in gear? If the bearing was somehow constantly hitting the pressure plate, wouldn't that disallow the transaxles from engaging?

jimbote · Jun 21, 2017

are the axles bolted to the output flanges ? have you tried driving the car ? ... when under no load the synchros can smoothly engage the gears without grinding

BrownCWJ · Jun 21, 2017

jimbote said:
are the axles bolted to the output flanges ? have you tried driving the car ? ... when under no load the synchros can smoothly engage the gears without grinding

Seriously? Ugh....I haven't even taken it off the jacks yet, nor have I attached the axles to the flanges. What I should have written is that the flanges spin freely when in gear.

So should I attach the axles and drop it from the jacks and put in under load?

steve6 · Jun 22, 2017

If you remove the slave, you can push on the top of the fork , see if its moving properly. I would finish putting it back together and bleed the slave, see if it seems alright. Bleeding the slave 100% can be a pain I have found, but you need to make sure you get all the air out.

jimbote · Jun 22, 2017

BrownCWJ said:
Seriously? Ugh....I haven't even taken it off the jacks yet, nor have I attached the axles to the flanges. What I should have written is that the flanges spin freely when in gear.
So should I attach the axles and drop it from the jacks and put in under load?

yeah, you have a differential that allows the flanges to spin freely regardless of the transmissions condition in gear, neutral, locked up ... but they will spin in opposite directions

maxmoo · Jun 22, 2017

steve6 said:
If you remove the slave, you can push on the top of the fork , see if its moving properly. I would finish putting it back together and bleed the slave, see if it seems alright. Bleeding the slave 100% can be a pain I have found, but you need to make sure you get all the air out.

^ Yup, sounds like you may just have air in your clutch lines

BrownCWJ · Jun 22, 2017

I'll bleed those lines this afternoon to make certain I get the air out.

Before I take the car off the jacks, I just want to clarify: if the transmission isn't under load, I can shift between gears, with the engine running and without using the clutch pedal?

BobnOH · Jun 22, 2017

BrownCWJ said:
I'll bleed those lines this afternoon to make certain I get the air out.

Before I take the car off the jacks, I just want to clarify: if the transmission isn't under load, I can shift between gears, with the engine running and without using the clutch pedal?

Yes, that's a problem. With the motor running, clutch pedal up, in neutral or any gear, the clutch should be engaged with the flywheel, not allowing the gear to change (it can be forced, causing engine stall).
Wish I could offer more on possible solution, but somethings not assembled right or the part(s) are wrong.

BrownCWJ · Jun 22, 2017

It is an aftermarket Mitsuko clutch, which is allegedly billed as a "racing" or performance clutch. Could this be part of the problem? I've just contacted the seller to ask some questions.

BobnOH · Jun 22, 2017

clutch is a clutch, it fits or it don't. Can't tell over the internet if it's not fit properly or it's the part(s). Gotta part number for us, we should be able to check that.
It's been many years since I did a clutch, never had problems, so I ever learned all the intricacies. It seems to me that on install of the flywheel, then the clutch, that the clutch would at that point be fully engaged with the flywheel. The clutch fork/throwout bearing rides on the fingers, depressing the clutch to disengage when the pedal is depressed.
But there are others with much more knowledge and experience here. Does sound frustrating....

BrownCWJ · Jun 22, 2017

This is what I found for part #s:

Manufacturer Part Number: 17-059SMF

Interchange Part Number: 17-059SMF MU72211-1SK W17-072

Other Part Number: 17059 K70038-02F 52255602 92692SK

I should have just gone through ID Parts, like I do for everything else. I was swayed by what seemed a good deal.

maxmoo · Jun 22, 2017

BrownCWJ said:
I'll bleed those lines this afternoon to make certain I get the air out.

Before I take the car off the jacks, I just want to clarify: if the transmission isn't under load, I can shift between gears, with the engine running and without using the clutch pedal?

This does not surprise me if the axles are disconected......sounds normal.....you may just be over thinking this.

"The pedal was sitting on the floor and had to be manually pulled back up, and moreover, I realized that I could shift between gears (with the engine running) without the pedal??????? I bled the system and managed to get a bit of air out of the slave cylinder, even managing to get a soft, but responsive pedal, but still didn't need it to shift between gears."

If you had air in the system, chances are you didn't get it all out....make SURE to properly bleed the clutch system....it can be difficult sometimes.......make sure the brake fluid stays topped up so you don't suck more air in.

BobnOH · Jun 22, 2017

maxmoo said:
This does not surprise me if the axles are disconected......sounds normal.....you may just be over thinking this.

"The pedal was sitting on the floor and had to be manually pulled back up, and moreover, I realized that I could shift between gears (with the engine running) without the pedal??????? I bled the system and managed to get a bit of air out of the slave cylinder, even managing to get a soft, but responsive pedal, but still didn't need it to shift between gears."

If you had air in the system, chances are you didn't get it all out....make SURE to properly bleed the clutch system....it can be difficult sometimes.......make sure the brake fluid stays topped up so you don't suck more air in.

You're right, after I posted that last comment I realized I was assuming all was connected. Since much was disconnected to replace the clutch, it's possible some part of the gearing is disconnected.

jimbote · Jun 22, 2017

air in the system has nothing to do with what he's describing... however, axles disconnected would

maxmoo · Jun 22, 2017

jimbote said:
air in the system has nothing to do with what he's describing... however, axles disconnected would

?
He said.........
"The pedal was sitting on the floor and had to be manually pulled back up, and moreover, I realized that I could shift between gears (with the engine running) without the pedal??????? I bled the system and managed to get a bit of air out of the slave cylinder, even managing to get a soft, but responsive pedal, but still didn't need it to shift between gears."

UhOh · Jun 22, 2017

I believe he was replying to the OP stating that while he was in the process of putting things back together that he had noted that he didn't have to use the clutch in order to get the gears to shift without grinding. The context being that there were no loading forces and that the synchros would easily enable shifting without the clutch: and the point/concern is over whether the clutch is working or not.

jimbote · Jun 23, 2017

maxmoo said:
?
He said.........
"The pedal was sitting on the floor and had to be manually pulled back up, and moreover, I realized that I could shift between gears (with the engine running) without the pedal??????? I bled the system and managed to get a bit of air out of the slave cylinder, even managing to get a soft, but responsive pedal, but still didn't need it to shift between gears."

the OP's main concern of this thread is why he could shift without the clutch...yes, he had air in the lines but that has zero to do with his main concern yet folks keep posting about bleeding the clutch

UhOh said:
I believe he was replying to the OP stating that while he was in the process of putting things back together that he had noted that he didn't have to use the clutch in order to get the gears to shift without grinding. The context being that there were no loading forces and that the synchros would easily enable shifting without the clutch: and the point/concern is over whether the clutch is working or not.

thank you !

BrownCWJ · Jun 23, 2017

Thank you!!!!! The sage advice of jimbote and others encouraged me to complete the job, take the car off the stands and give it a whirl. It worked!!

I had no idea the lack of loading forces would allow for that shifting. I wonder if any other yahoos have made the same mistake I did, and have given up or taken the car to a garage unnecessarily?

The pedal is a bit lower than I'd care for, and it's a little wonky getting into reverse (just stiff), but it shifts nicely otherwise and the car feels great on the road.

GCBUG00 · Jun 24, 2017

I just reviewed this thread, is it correct most of your issue (ignoring the pedal for now) is from "test driving" on jack stands and reporting from that perspective?

jimbote · Jun 24, 2017

GCBUG00 said:
I just reviewed this thread, is it correct most of your issue (ignoring the pedal for now) is from "test driving" on jack stands and reporting from that perspective?

on jack stands without the axles connected to the transmission

GCBUG00 · Jun 24, 2017

I'm speechless.

But as a note from the clutch industry, I'm not aware of any valid diagnostics from running the engine and test driving shifting up and down with the wheels off of the ground and in fact under the correct (wrong) conditions it has been documented to destroy drive straps on pressure plates.

Good job jimbote of rooting thru the info to figure this one out.

BrownCWJ · Jun 25, 2017

That's exactly what the root issue was, and I am thankful for the sage advice that saved my sanity...and perhaps my pressure plate.

Clutch issue...replaced but more issues

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