Why all these big vehicles?

GM had an electric S10, too. Toyota had the RAV4 EV.

Good thing about electric versions of regular vehicles is that they do not look like some goofy space capsule thing from the Jetzons. Bad news is, they are too heavily influenced from the ICE setup they were designed to have, so the end result is pretty abysmal. Kind of hard to make the best of both worlds unless some pretty flexible base designs get used. The new Sprinter is supposed to be just that, but we won't see the electric version here. At least not yet. Building flexibility into a unibody van is probably easier than a car, and there is no drive to make a van look like a little space ship. It's a van. It is like a shovel, it's design is built around its intended use(s).

Since this thread started, the last Chevrolet Volt and Cruze have left their assembly lines (getting back on topic). But the Jeep Commander and Dodge Ramcharger revivals are in motion. So if you want a small efficient car, two less are available, but if you want a giant SUV, two MORE will be available soon. And they'll probably be available in SRT trim with a giant Hemi engine.

The Kia Niro is designed to be both ICE and electric. Sales figures I saw for January 2019 showed they sold a grand total of 2 (yes, two) of the electrics in the US.

Now that's what I call progressive.

Oil is available.



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oilhammer said:

Good thing about electric versions of regular vehicles is that they do not look like some goofy space capsule thing from the Jetzons. Bad news is, they are too heavily influenced from the ICE setup they were designed to have, so the end result is pretty abysmal.

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I'm really impressed/happy with my 2016 e-golf. It's almost hard to believe it's just a converted ICE car because the execution/quality/driving experience is very good. Maybe the golf/rabbit is a better fit than other ICE cars to be electric, because it's arguably more focused on efficiency than almost any other car design, and has actually been sold in limited numbers as a factory EV version on and off in the 70s and 80s.

I still have the TDI for long trips, but if it had a bit more range and faster charging I wouldn't need that.

The eGolf's range, and as I am told, poor thermal battery management, along with its nosebleed MSRP, means it will forever be off my list.

I think the best description of "conventional" EVs like the eGolf is they're like driving a TDI with only the fuel reserve. Light on all the time. Not comforting.

EVs range in winter

If the batterys in electric cars are like gas cars they must have much reduced range on cold winter days, but this is rarelly mentioned. How much range is lost from summer to a cold winter day? Why don't we hear about this?

I expect there will be an eGolf with 225+ miles of range within the next 3-4 years. It's still not 600 miles, but a lot better than the current eGolf.

vwdsmguy said:

If the batterys in electric cars are like gas cars they must have much reduced range on cold winter days, but this is rarelly mentioned. How much range is lost from summer to a cold winter day? Why don't we hear about this?

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Did you try googling 'reduced EV range on cold winter days'?

Driving electric cars in winter: tips from experienced owner

Electric car range is affected by extreme cold, but at least the cars can start


EVs lose up to ~40% range in sub-zero weather. Cold... like REALLY cold. Polar Vortex Cold of ~-20F. But range loss is greatly mitigated by pre-heating the car while it's plugged in.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I think the best description of "conventional" EVs like the eGolf is they're like driving a TDI with only the fuel reserve. Light on all the time. Not comforting.

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Not in my opinion... It's the uncertainty of getting stranded that causes stress, not the actual range. Once the fuel light on my TDI comes on there's a lot of uncertainty about how far you can really make it, and if you will be stranded or not.

With the e-Golf I always leave home with 100% charge, and it has a highly accurate range estimate. So I only drive it to places that it has enough range to handle (which is 99% of the places I drive to), and there's no stress as I'm sure I will make it. Also, there's a button in the car that gives you a free tow if you run out of range, which I've never had to use. Moreover, the range is a lot more than advertised (~1.5x) if driven properly.

Overall I'd say the e-Golf is somewhat less stressful to drive than my old MKIV TDI, because it's a much simpler vehicle with less moving parts... there's always a decent chance of a breakdown or needing a roadside repair in the TDI, but an unexpected breakdown isn't going to happen in the e-Golf.

There are more than a few days each week when I could come close to using all the range of an eGolf, and some where I would exceed that range. The freedom of not worrying about plugging the car in while at work or remembering every night is important. I've been spoiled enough by the 700+ mile range of my MKIV TDI that I am less than thrilled with the 500 or so miles I get from my BMW or MKVII.

Last month I drove out to Madison, WI for the weekend to visit my son. 1170 miles each way. Got there in 19 hours, back in 18. On the way home I filled the wagon (first fill of the trip) in central PA and drove straight home (440 miles) without a stop. I can't see giving that up.

I usually fill my Wagon when or soon after the reserve light comes on. But I still get over 700 miles per tank. And breakdowns? I've had two in 385K miles. One was a faulty relay on a lift pump (which I had added) and the other, recently, was a broken axle. Pretty good reliability. I doubt an electric would have a similar record.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

And breakdowns? I've had two in 385K miles.

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Yes, it's not a suitable car at all for long range driving, but most people don't do that often. It has plenty of battery for my wife's daily commute, and we still have the TDI for out of town drives.


Yes, TDI VWs are crazy reliable by combustion car standards, but I really expect the reliability of modern electric cars to be orders of magnitude different than internal combustion cars. Of course I can't prove this yet, but I'd bet you could drive thousands of e-Golfs to 385k miles each, and zero of them would have a single unexpected breakdown. It simply doesn't even have any of the parts that tend to fail on cars - no real transmission, no liquid fuel handling, etc. The one thing that does worry me is that it weirdly seems to have a normal gas engine cooling system with full sized radiator and all, probably to avoid the cost of engineering a new one. But it's under much less thermal stress and pressure, since it remains cool to the touch at all times.

I've seen reviews of older Teslas with over 100K miles on them that have experienced multiple electric motor failures, received battery replacements, and had the main display fail. And even electrics have brakes, ball joints, tie rods, etc. So I doubt they'd be totally repair free over the long term.

Modern ICE drivetrains are pretty reliable. Most of the issues modern cars face seem to have to do with electronics or emissions systems. But even the emissions systems are better than a generation ago. Most cars today will run reliably for longer than owners want to keep them. People get rid of cars because they get tired of them or something better comes along, more often than not.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I've seen reviews of older Teslas with over 100K miles on them that have experienced multiple electric motor failures, received battery replacements, and had the main display fail. And even electrics have brakes, ball joints, tie rods, etc. So I doubt they'd be totally repair free over the long term.

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That's a good point that ICE is a much more mature technology, so there are likely manufacturing issues and such to still work out in electrics.


I suspect that the same chassis- suspension, CV joints, brakes, wheel bearings, etc. will last much longer on electric cars due to the smooth power delivery and regenerative braking. The brakes on the e-Golf get roughly zero wear because they only activate during rapid emergency stops, and perhaps during the final part of a stop (e.g. 3mph to 0), which of course we don't perform here in California. Maybe they'll fail early from condensation corrosion/disuse.

Brakes will probably last longer, but keep in mind that electrics are also generally a lot heavier than their equivalent ICE car. The eGolf weighs 3,430 lbs, which is about 500 lbs. more than a gasoline powered Golf. And I believe a lot of the suspension and steering component wear is driven more by road conditions than power delivery.

Suspension, steering, CV joints, and wheel bearings are loaded NO differently on an EV versus a combustion-engine powertrain. Bump impacts, and drivers turning the steering wheel with the car stopped, are no different. Brakes certainly can be loaded less with an EV, but corrosion and water intrusion don't stop, and if the limiting factor is brake calipers seizing due to time and corrosion (and sometimes it is), disuse doesn't help.

The "regular car stuff" is all the same regardless of the powertrain.

A lot of electrics are capable of more torque than ICE as well, which will likely be *harder* on things like CV joints and other driveline parts.

Only if you are pounding on it. If driven normally nothing should be different.

Ford announced they are "redefining capacity" at their Louisville plant, to try and meet the needs of the new Expedition/Navigator. Bringing in an extra 500 employees, revamping production processes and adding additional "levels" so assembly can happen from below and above simultaneously. Sales of the big 8-passenger SUVs are up 35%, and that is only that low due to supply shortcomings: they simply cannot build them fast enough.

They've also brought on 3D printers to faster address worn production line parts so that they can be manufactured and replaced on site, reducing potential down time.

On the other side of this coin, I drove my GSW yesterday because my Wagon developed a fuel leak. I got out of it last night and thought, “Nice car. I wish it wasn’t so big.”

I think we are witnessing another consumption bubble, with people drowning in debt, fulfilling expectations that they can't afford. Just like the last bubble, this won't end well.

truman said:

I think we are witnessing another consumption bubble, with people drowning in debt, fulfilling expectations that they can't afford. Just like the last bubble, this won't end well.

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Feels that way to me, too. But most people would say we're being alarmist.

truman said:

I think we are witnessing another consumption bubble, with people drowning in debt, fulfilling expectations that they can't afford. Just like the last bubble, this won't end well.

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Ditto, and if you are ready for it things can go quite well.

This time is different- I'm sure or hope.

oilhammer said:

Good thing about electric versions of regular vehicles is that they do not look like some goofy space capsule thing from the Jetzons.

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That was one of the things that actually hurt the sales of the first generation hybrid Civic and Accord, according to the Honda salesman trying to sell us one. Most people cross shopping hybrids were looking for something that stood out, like the Prius. You can't claim to be holier than your neighbor if you have to make a big deal about it. Kind of like the Saturn Vue hybrid. Had to put the hybrid decal on so that your neighbors would notice.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

There are more than a few days each week when I could come close to using all the range of an eGolf, and some where I would exceed that range. The freedom of not worrying about plugging the car in while at work or remembering every night is important.

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I've often said that my wife not plugging an electric car in is my biggest fear when I'm travelling. She'd be halfway to somewhere when she realizes either she can't get to where she has to be and she can no longer get back home. At least with a hybrid, she would be able to use the IC engine to get to a charging station.

truman said:

I think we are witnessing another consumption bubble, with people drowning in debt, fulfilling expectations that they can't afford. Just like the last bubble, this won't end well.

Click to expand...

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Feels that way to me, too. But most people would say we're being alarmist.

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It's coming, just a matter of when... the little downturn a few months ago was nothing

JDSwan87 said:

It's coming, just a matter of when... the little downturn a few months ago was nothing

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Guess I need to cash out the 401K and start stuffing the mattresses.

It will come in November of 2020, regardless of who wins or loses the election.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Brakes will probably last longer, but keep in mind that electrics are also generally a lot heavier than their equivalent ICE car. The eGolf weighs 3,430 lbs, which is about 500 lbs. more than a gasoline powered Golf. And I believe a lot of the suspension and steering component wear is driven more by road conditions than power delivery.

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Hybrids are such a stupid idea. Carrying around batteries subtracts from the useful load of the car.

Disadvantages of a Hybrid Car

1. Less Power: Hybrid cars are twin powered engine. The gasoline engine which is primary source of power is much smaller as compared to what you get in single engine powered car and electric motor is low power. The combined power of both is often less than that of gas powered engine. It is therefore suited for city driving and not for speed and acceleration.

2. Can be Expensive: The biggest drawback of having a hybrid car is that it can burn a hole in your pocket. Hybrid cars are comparatively expensive than a regular petrol car and can cost $5000 to $10000 more than a standard version. However, that extra amount can be offset with lower running cost and tax exemptions.

3. Poorer Handling: A hybrid car houses an gasoline powered engine, a lighter electric engine and a pack of powerful batteries. This adds weight and eats up the extra space in the car. Extra weight results in fuel inefficiency and manufacturers cut down weight which has resulted in motor and battery downsizing and less support in the suspension and body.

4. Higher Maintenance Costs: The presence of dual engine, continuous improvement in technology, and higher maintenance cost can make it difficult for mechanics to repair the car. It is also difficult to find a mechanic with such an expertise.

5. Presence of High Voltage in Batteries: In case of an accident, the high voltage present inside the batteries can prove lethal for you. There is a high chance of you getting electrocuted in such cases which can also make the task difficult for rescuers to get other passengers and driver out of the car.