Abacus
That helpful B4 guy
Then my B4V should blow most things away, yet Prius owners aren't attracted to them, they're repelled.
Visting Prius Owner
- Thread starter bwilson4web
- Start date
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
For a road-going vehicle, a tractor-trailer rig with a 53 foot box trailer should blow that formula away!
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
The problem with that formula is cars spend most of their lives with a driver only. Sometimes with two people. Look at cars on the road and count how many are fully occupied. Almost none.
turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
LOL, I had one for 3 years, got it for next to nothing-dealership trade in-oil was coming out of his dash so he had enough-Lube place put gear oil in and it migrated up the speedo cable,It's amazing how far we haven't progressed with gasoline consumption.
Fixed it up and never got below 50 mpg combined-but no a/c, cruise vs my TDI sedan that averages 40 mpg and has it all. It sucked for trips though, extended 120 km/h road trips were noisey and scary, lol.No need for a time machine, just find one for sale and go buy one, its already depreciated,
bwilson4web
Well-known member
Now you understand the power of the formula. The volume of a vehicle, the payload, grows by the cube, which is faster than the shell, the parts that move the vehicle and give the MPG. So when I had a 1966 VW MicroBus it only gave 28 MPG but the interior was a 'live in' closet and fully met my needs . . . a large metal tent on wheels.
I used it like a small camper with a folding bed, storage space under the bed for tools and spare parts, food, a Coleman stove, and anything else. That 1500 cc engine was noisy and needed frequent valve backlash adjustments but it worked good enough for 1966 technology.
The real use of the formula is to compare equivalent class of cars. That Geo is what used to be called a sub-compact, four seats only, closer to the first generation Volt. In contrast, the Sportswagen and Jetta hybrid have five seats.
When comparing midsize cars, the formula quickly identifies the most efficient ride whereas MPG alone can be misleading. The car with the larger efficiency number, cubic feet mile per gallon, is the one that will have the maximum, life-time utility. So you might not have to rent a U-haul or borrow a friend's ride.
Of course it doesn't work for motorcycles or sports cars. But we usually don't haul 2x4s, plywood, or co-workers going for lunch.
Bob Wilson
I used it like a small camper with a folding bed, storage space under the bed for tools and spare parts, food, a Coleman stove, and anything else. That 1500 cc engine was noisy and needed frequent valve backlash adjustments but it worked good enough for 1966 technology.
The real use of the formula is to compare equivalent class of cars. That Geo is what used to be called a sub-compact, four seats only, closer to the first generation Volt. In contrast, the Sportswagen and Jetta hybrid have five seats.
When comparing midsize cars, the formula quickly identifies the most efficient ride whereas MPG alone can be misleading. The car with the larger efficiency number, cubic feet mile per gallon, is the one that will have the maximum, life-time utility. So you might not have to rent a U-haul or borrow a friend's ride.
Of course it doesn't work for motorcycles or sports cars. But we usually don't haul 2x4s, plywood, or co-workers going for lunch.
Bob Wilson
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rwolff
Veteran Member
GoFaster, you beat me to it. Even using 5 1/2 MPG (40,000 pound load in hilly areas), I'd definitely blow that away. After all, you can fit 3 of his vehicle in my trailer.
whitedog
Veteran Member
Interesting comment.
bwilson4web
Well-known member
It comes from this source:
http://www.consumerreports.org/volkswagen/did-volkswagen-use-cheat-mode-as-a-selling-point
Here is the press release referenced:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...otor-vehicle-federal-tax-credit-65131237.html
Bob Wilson
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whitedog
Veteran Member
Yes, Bob you are right. I'll go hide under the bridge again.
bwilson4web
Well-known member
Not my intent. VW worked hard to keep folks blind to what was going on. This included making sure we don't communicate and share what we know about each others rides.
VW realized this with their Jetta hybrid but a little late. VW wasn't the only maker late to the party and Toyota has been clawing up the learning curve:
- 42 MPG - 2001-03 Prius (auto, regular)
- 43 MPG - 2015 Jetta Hybrid (auto, primum)
- 47 MPG - 2004-09 Prius (auto, regular)
- 50 MPG - 2010-2015 Prius (auto, regular)
One of the reasons the Prius passes emission tests are the hybrid control laws. They turn off the engine when possible and run the engine in the lowest emissions modes . . . which also happen to be the most efficient power modes. This explains why the Prius has so many systems dedicated to warming up the engine and the inefficiency we find in the first 1-2 miles.
It turns out that Argonne Labs has a new facility that includes a temperature controlled, dyno. Source: http://www.anl.gov/energy-systems/group/downloadable-dynamometer-database
"This data is from the Downloadable Dynamometer Database and was generated at the Advanced Powertrain Research Facility (APRF) at Argonne National Laboratory under the funding and guidance of the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)"
- US06 - is the aggressive, urban driver profile
- highway - is speed limit posted performance
The "Portland-to-Portland" stunt by 'Green Human' ran 8,000 miles only to get 41.4 MPG with the Jetta and 40.96 with the Prius. We know from Prius MPG vs mph data the cars were traveling ~80 mph.
So I started to look at the detailed data from US06. Each vertical gridline is 10 hp. The horizontals are fuel "cc/sec."
The Jetta TDI shows a smooth relationship between fuel consumption and dyno power. In contrast, the Prius has a hybrid transmission that often lets the engine turn off or operate in an emissions and fuel efficient mode. But I notice the Jetta hybrid was also tested.
I'll download the data and make a chart.
Bob Wilson
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tikal
Veteran Member
Actually in America we choose to drive larger and larger vehicles that get worse and worse mileage. No surprises here base on the laws of physic.
Our non-commercial US fleet average MPG is what, around the low 20's lately. I bet you the same average was not much worse in the mid 1970's. Said average has not increased significantly primarily because of our choices of what vehicles to buy and not because of the science not helping (primarily).
C'mon, how many times have you heard from somebody saying 'I wish I could but that nice truck, the latest and greatest, to move that large piece of furniture once every ... '?
325_Guy
Veteran Member
Concur. And didn't someone post on here a while back that U.S. truck and SUV sales are again climbing now that pump prices are at an all-time low?
Corporations produce what people want to buy.
Abacus
That helpful B4 guy
I disagree with this statement. It should read:
Corporations produce what people will buy.
Suffice to say, if they don't sell it, we can't buy it, so they have a directed audience that they are directing. This also goes back to the whole 'auto vs manual' discussion.
Give me a Scirocco or HiLux any day of the week over the crap we're spoon fed over here. Have you actually driven some of today's vehicles? They're light years away from the European versions. Of course it takes going over there and actually driving some to find out, but trust me, we're getting the chaff and not the crop.
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Marketing = finding out what people want to buy
Sales = getting people to buy what you have
Auto companies are far more driven by sales than marketing. They decide they're able to build something (a hybrid, a 700 HP muscle car, a ginormous SUV) and then launch a sales campaign to get people to buy it. What they call marketing is usually closer to sales planning. Companies are driven by regulations, engineering, production capability, leveraging existing platforms and drivetrains to save money...all kinds of things that are independent of asking consumers what they want to buy.
Ask 100 drivers if they're perfectly happy with the car they have and I bet more than 80 will say either "no," or "yes, but..." People continuously complain that their cars are too expensive to buy, depreciate too fast, are too complex, break too often, use too much fuel...you name it.
Sales = getting people to buy what you have
Auto companies are far more driven by sales than marketing. They decide they're able to build something (a hybrid, a 700 HP muscle car, a ginormous SUV) and then launch a sales campaign to get people to buy it. What they call marketing is usually closer to sales planning. Companies are driven by regulations, engineering, production capability, leveraging existing platforms and drivetrains to save money...all kinds of things that are independent of asking consumers what they want to buy.
Ask 100 drivers if they're perfectly happy with the car they have and I bet more than 80 will say either "no," or "yes, but..." People continuously complain that their cars are too expensive to buy, depreciate too fast, are too complex, break too often, use too much fuel...you name it.
325_Guy
Veteran Member
Fair enough. And yes, I have had the opportunity to drive some of the RoW vehicles- I got to drive several HiLuxes on some of my overseas adventures and geesh, I'd nearly kill to be able to bring a HiLux stateside.
Thing to be realized though is that sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we TDI owners are in a little bit of a bubble over here. The vast majority of folks don't want manual transmission TDIs or manual transmission anything for that matter...they want appliances that you put gas in and go. A vehicle that has the operator maintenance requirements of a toaster.
If more people outside of a small subset of niche vehicle owners (us) desired manual transmissions, more diesel offerings, that sort of thing, American car manufacturers would market and sell them. Buuuut....people don't want them. What we are offered is what we as Americans want.
mr.shooty
Veteran Member
Bob,
....I have to ask again, what are you doing in this forum? I don't think you'll get many Prius converters, even after dieselgate. Btw my other vehicle gets 55 mpg, is brilliant in city traffic, especially the crappy pot-holed roads around North Philly, produces about 145hp, accelerates from 0-60 in about 3 seconds, and only costs $350 a year to insure, and that is why 9 months out of the year I commute on my KTM 1190R - perfect as there is only me!! I will add the only potential problem I face are car/bike-jackers, something you probably are immune to in a Prius; you're certainly not driving something cool enough to be robbed of it at gunpoint along Erie Avenue lol!
....I have to ask again, what are you doing in this forum? I don't think you'll get many Prius converters, even after dieselgate. Btw my other vehicle gets 55 mpg, is brilliant in city traffic, especially the crappy pot-holed roads around North Philly, produces about 145hp, accelerates from 0-60 in about 3 seconds, and only costs $350 a year to insure, and that is why 9 months out of the year I commute on my KTM 1190R - perfect as there is only me!! I will add the only potential problem I face are car/bike-jackers, something you probably are immune to in a Prius; you're certainly not driving something cool enough to be robbed of it at gunpoint along Erie Avenue lol!
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turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Agree'd, I was in Germany in 1995, rented an Opel Astra-budget car back then, it was rock solid on the Autobahn, handled like a dream, got decent mpg, the only crappy thing is it wouldn't go passed 200 km/h,
. DRove a same era Golf too, was pretty scary on the Autobahn, wouldn't keep a straight line, Last one we rented was an N/A Audi wagon, max speed was 200 km/h, wicked to drive but man did it drink fuel.GoFaster
Moderator at Large
The tech info posted concerning the Prius drivetrain is interesting and it is all well and good, but it doesn't make me despise the vehicle it's in any less. The drivetrain in the Prius is very well engineered and I've said so myself many times before. But if it's in a vehicle that I dislike for other reasons ... there is no way I'm going to be buying it.
Toyota has said that the 2016 Prius will have better driving dynamics. It's known that they have gone away from the twist-beam rear axle to a proper IRS, so perhaps there is hope. It remains to be seen whether they fix the absurdly overassisted power steering. But at this point it doesn't matter to me, because the styling decisions that they made on that car are, ahem, questionable at best.
The 2016 Chevrolet Volt has been getting good reviews in the press, I think it looks great, and it has a 5 door hatch body style (most practical for a daily driver). For the eco-wise, it should do everything a Prius does and more, on the grounds of having a decent electric-only range. I would take that in a second over a Prius and it's on the short list for my next car - next year, sometime.
tadawson
Veteran Member
Disagree!
Marketing: Convincing folks that a turd is really a gold brick . . .
Sales: Parting some poor soul from more than the misrepresented turd is worth.
Market *research* (not marketing) is figuring out what folks actually want.
- Tim
turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
People don't know what hey want until its shown to them. Steve Jobs did that perfectly with the iPhone and tablets.
Abacus
That helpful B4 guy
But that's just it, they have been shown in other countries yet are still denied here. We can only choose from what we're spoon fed and we have no choice in the menu.
My question is if VW lied on the emissions issue, have the Battery powered cars considered the lie of the Battery package. The lithium ion or nickel-metal hydride battery packs that drive these vehicles do more damage to the environment delivered to the factory then a TDI after years of use. Then as these battery packages wear out what do you do with them, they are not recyclable. Over all the economy and simple technology that is race developed (20 Year of endurance racing) has proven it reliability, simplicity and safety.
For some of us that have followed the TDI remember the change that took place when the TDI mileage dropped because the diesel is not popular here in the states. So the testing was changed and the rating went down. I know my performance has always exceeded the government numbers.
By the way I made my last cross country drive From East TN to LA in 3 stops and less then $100 dollars in fuel.
For some of us that have followed the TDI remember the change that took place when the TDI mileage dropped because the diesel is not popular here in the states. So the testing was changed and the rating went down. I know my performance has always exceeded the government numbers.
By the way I made my last cross country drive From East TN to LA in 3 stops and less then $100 dollars in fuel.
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tadawson
Veteran Member
Yup, he showed me exactly what dumbed down crap looked like, and I promptly bought superior Android devices, and I thank him for that!
- Tim
tikal
Veteran Member
I agree that there is a combination of what people want to buy and what companies persuades us to buy. However I still maintain my point (and some other folks have agreed with this in the past) that the trend of buying SUVs/Trucks is going to continue and Americans are going to choose an SUV vs a mid-size station wagon (if there was one for sale such as the Passat wagon). SUVs give people a sense of additional safety and comfort vs a sedan. Also the profits are higher with SUVs/Trucks so why 'market' a station wagon (TDI, hybrid or 'plain vanilla' does not matter here).
The sales of TDI and hybrid cars are going to stay mostly flat in the foreseeable future in my view. VW 'missed the boat' by not working faster to bring a mid-size TDI SUV (larger than the Tiguan but not as big/expensive as the Toureg).
For me this is a good thread and I learned certain certain information about the Prius and the pros/cons of the hybrid technology that I was not aware of before. I still believe that the hybrid and TDI cars are going to continue being a niche market in the US. A mid-size light duty diesel SUV might have a chance of success in the future provided fuel prices will go up somewhat. To me something like the Honda CRV 1.6 i-DTEC or Toyota RAV4 diesel might have potential in the US.
The sales of TDI and hybrid cars are going to stay mostly flat in the foreseeable future in my view. VW 'missed the boat' by not working faster to bring a mid-size TDI SUV (larger than the Tiguan but not as big/expensive as the Toureg).
For me this is a good thread and I learned certain certain information about the Prius and the pros/cons of the hybrid technology that I was not aware of before. I still believe that the hybrid and TDI cars are going to continue being a niche market in the US. A mid-size light duty diesel SUV might have a chance of success in the future provided fuel prices will go up somewhat. To me something like the Honda CRV 1.6 i-DTEC or Toyota RAV4 diesel might have potential in the US.
turbovan+tdi
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2014
- Location
- Abbotsford, BC.
- TDI
- 2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
But we've been shown and we want it but our dumb governments won't let us,
So it still applies, We have a choice if you have deep pockets, lol.That's not he point, he made it, people bought it, got rich, died, case closed.Yup, he showed me exactly what dumbed down crap looked like, and I promptly bought superior Android devices, and I thank him for that!
- Tim
El Dobro
Top Post Dawg
bwilson4web
Well-known member
Sharing information. For example, I went back and took another look at the Argonne Labs data:
I re-ordered the tests so we could see the trends. What jumped out was the spread of 'UDDS HS' results:
- 39 MPG - Jetta TDI
- 49 MPG - Jetta hybrid
- 70 MPG - Prius
Jetta TDI, UDDS HS @23C
This car had the 'defeat device' to pass emissions testing. So when we look at the benchmark data, we see the engine continues to run even when the car is slowing down and braking:
What is surprising are the relatively high fuel consumption rates during the braking and slowing down, negative dyno watts. It would be interesting to see the same data when the 'defeat device' is removed.
Jetta hybrid, UDDS HS @23C
This shows the power of turning off the engine when slowing. It also shows that when the power needed is ~10 hp, the electric motor sustains the car with the engine off:
Interesting, we also see the fuel consumption of the Otto engine is pretty poor compared to the diesel. But the control laws gives 49 MPG versus 39 MPG.
Prius, UDDS HS @23C
This is the 3d generation Prius and Toyota has spent a lot of time incrementally improving the car:
Unlike the Jetta hybrid, the Prius has some speeds where the engine has to run even when slowing. But when it does, the fuel consumption is at engine idle, ~.4 cc/sec. Sad to say, the "defeat device" of the TDI doesn't reduce the fuel flow to idle BUT the TDI may have to manage the NOx trap temperature and keep the exhaust temperatures up.
Notice that the Atkinson cycle engine, 8-to-1 compression stroke and 13-to-1 expansion returns near diesel efficiency for the quantity of fuel burned. Now if diesel diesel fuel had more energy per cc than regular gasoline, the heat engine efficiencies are even closer.
Three Layer: Jetta hybrid, Jetta TDI, Prius Chart
Here all three charts are combined in a layered approach. I did trim the fuel consumption Y-axis and peak power X-axis that removes one Jetta hybrid outlier. The idea is to look at the performance of all three vehicles on the same test to understand what is going on:
Both hybrids mostly turn off the engine when braking or slowing down. Also, both hybrid engines will burn a little more fuel because they put charge in the traction battery as well as keeping the car rolling. In contrast, the TDI only provides the dyno required power, a lower engine output.
About the Jetta hybrid, I suspect VW implemented acceleration and steering more along the ways Jetta owners like. In contrast, the Prius carries on the same Toyota 'car is an appliance' style. But there is one hope for the TDI fix.
If the VW fix can turn the engine to idle fuel consumption rates when braking or slowing, it should improve the MPG. We can only hope.
Bob Wilson
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oilhammer
Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
All the charts in the world can't change driving dynamics.
Abacus
That helpful B4 guy
Or are you selling? It sounds to me like you're either trying to sell the Prius on a TDI board or are trying to convince yourself you made the right purchase.
The TDI turns the fuel off when coasting in gear, and diesel fuel has a higher BTU content, requiring less to perform the same work. What we do not have in this country is a diesel that will automatically turn off the engine when the transmission is put in neutral and the tires are not moving. They do this in Europe but not in the US, I wonder why since it obviously 'saves fuel'.
Why do you keep going on about hybrids, you know this is a TDI site, right?
And Oilhammer is right, all the pretty graphs won't tell you how it drives.
bwilson4web
Well-known member
How does the Jetta hybrid, dynamics rate?
As for MPG, I'm curious about the "defeat device" and how it might impact mileage. Since I was curious, I though you' all might be too. The Argonne Labs data was something unique so I thought to share it. I suspect they will retest their diesels to confirm the fix and give us new, empirical data.
I did not realize in Europe some of the diesels turn off their engine. The Argonne data suggests it would make a significant improvement in TDI MPG and possibly reduce the emissions per mile. The usual concern is whether those cars then lose power assisted steering and brakes. I suspect the Jetta hybrid has an electrical solution for both . . . and possibly an electric AC compressor.
Notice that information can be a two-way street.
Bob Wilson
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