another botched timing belt job

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Customer recently drove [a great distance] for me to perform a major maintenance service on his sweet silver '03 Jetta Wagon. When I pulled the cover, this is what I found:



The car has 100k miles on it (5-speed, 100k belt, right on schedule!). The story he gave me was when the car was a baby, about 12k miles, the car started to run erratic after a cold start, and the MIL came on. Dealer said it was a fuel temp sensor code and that the pump needed to be replaced. Now we all know here that the fuel temp sensor can be obtained, through a dealer, no less, for about $20. And the sensor lives under the top of the pump cover and can be switched easily in about a half hour or less.

But, following the silly VESIS flowchart, the dealer tech dutifully ordered a whole "new" (reman) pump. Installed it in the above [wrong] fashion. And, as you can suspect, the owner went through several bouts of "low power, MIL on, car not running right, etc." Well, I guess eventually they got it to run half-assed decent, but if you look closely you'll see the pump's sprocket is jammed ALL THE WAY to one side on the timing adjustment, and this car was STILL not even in the graph!

Needless to say, I performed the job properly with the proper tools, got the timing set in spec, and all is well.

Just thought I'd pass this along, that there is a butcher at a VW dealer in Fairfax, Indiana, that is doing shortcutted work on TDIs and presumably every other car his tools touch.:rolleyes:
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Sad thing is, if he/she had just spent the time and done the job correctly the first time, he/she likely would have spent less overall time on the car with regards to all the "comebacks" to try and make it run right!:cool:
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
oilhammer said:
Sad thing is, if he/she had just spent the time and done the job correctly the first time, he/she likely would have spent less overall time on the car with regards to all the "comebacks" to try and make it run right!:cool:
Think of the money he made though. He beat flat rate on the IP install, so he made money there, then he probably got paid troubleshooting time each time the car came back. Looks like he is looking for an early retirement on the backs of his customers.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
oilhammer said:
the dealer tech dutifully ordered a whole "new" (reman) pump. Installed it in the above [wrong] fashion.

Oy Vey. :rolleyes: Why are there so many of these stories? This has to be the most misunderstood vehicle in NAmerica. :eek:
 

BrianCT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
USA
TDI
TDI
whitedog said:
Think of the money he made though.
All dealerships are totally honest and transparent. After this job was done the mechanic still had in sealed boxes and plastic wrap the warranty replacement timing belt kit, the extra bolts, the misc fluids and half dozen gaskets which he put aside for another customer who needed a real timing belt job.

But, heck you order all the parts under a warranty, VAG picks up the bill and if you have 89% of the parts left over you resell them for the next job.

I always wondered how 10 mechanics could bill 35 hours of work a day ea. totally 350 hrs in a 7 hour day with coffee breaks.

LOL:D

Brian

P.S. you guys forgot the high cost of the paint to mark the job!
 

tmleadr03

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Location
Aurora, CO
TDI
2012 Jetta
whitedog said:
Think of the money he made though. He beat flat rate on the IP install, so he made money there, then he probably got paid troubleshooting time each time the car came back. Looks like he is looking for an early retirement on the backs of his customers.
Not quite how it works. If you work on a car and it comes back cuz the job was done inncorrectly you get to work free the second time. This is why I dont push myself for speed (it just comes after you do a job often enough) and work sistimaticly (sp) and make sure I only have to do a job once. Beating flatrate will come.
 

tmleadr03

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Location
Aurora, CO
TDI
2012 Jetta
BrianCT said:
I always wondered how 10 mechanics could bill 35 hours of work a day ea. totally 350 hrs in a 7 hour day with coffee breaks.
Brian, where is this? I want to work there!!!

The top techs at my shop vary between 45-50 hours a week. Though the top tech this week only got 20 because he got stuck with a engine diagnosis that took him 3 days for which (since he could figure it out) he got nothing.
 

truman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 18, 2000
Location
columbia,MO,usa
TDI
'05 Passat Variant, Still miss the 03JW
Is the flat rate for VW warranty repairs particularly low in the industry? It would seem to me that a rate which is too low to allow the shop and and techs to earn a reasonable profit encourages excessive parts changing and sloppy work? The stories that I read here remind me of an '87 16v Scirrocco that I once owned. It had a lot of parts changed and the original problem never corrected + new problems. I eventually got fed up with the issues and sold the car. VW corporate also appears not to be much involved in customer satisfaction issues? In my experience, Lexus does a good job in this area, but they also have a better cost structure to work from. Audi would be a better direct comparison, but I don't have any experience w/ Audi. I would hope that Audi is significantly better than VW.
 

whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
tmleadr03 said:
Not quite how it works. If you work on a car and it comes back cuz the job was done inncorrectly you get to work free the second time. This is why I dont push myself for speed (it just comes after you do a job often enough) and work sistimaticly (sp) and make sure I only have to do a job once. Beating flatrate will come.
That is only if the customer can convince them that it is still their problem. Otherwise, they say they are looking for a new problem and bill for that problem.

Man, I'm glad I don't work flatrate; I can take my time and get it right before it leaves.
 

BrianCT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
USA
TDI
TDI
tmleadr03 said:
Brian, where is this? I want to work there!!!
It was a couple dealerships where I was friends with their mechanics. They'd find the problem, order a slew of parts if it was warranty work, one part for the customer, 9 misc parts for the next jobs while the customer would be handed his keys without a trace of paper work. In 2003 one got caught doing it [dealership]. The dealership didn't realize that the "warranty replacement I.P." that was never installed in a stalling TDI [fuel gellingsimple fix] was on a neighbor's car down the block and they both knew each other. Long story. One had a warranty and the other didn't. Guess who paid $2,300? Both were fuel gelling issues by the way.

I got a slew of them stories. A slew.

Brian
 

jackbombay

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Location
Diesel knows best
TDI
A4 Jetta
My friend's dad was a Jag mechanic (Talk about job security!) for 30 years, he regularly "worked" ~120 hours a week, after doing the same thing for 30 years you get pretty quick at it.
 

BrianCT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
USA
TDI
TDI
whitedog said:
Man, I'm glad I don't work flatrate; I can take my time and get it right before it leaves.
Schedule me in for an appointment. I have a chirping noise. It's a straight line drive but with some hills according to MapQuest.:D

 

BrianCT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
USA
TDI
TDI
jackbombay said:
My friend's dad was a Jag mechanic (Talk about job security!) for 30 years, he regularly "worked" ~120 hours a week, after doing the same thing for 30 years you get pretty quick at it.
Well that's the key to the entire business isn't it? The book states X-amount of hours to do a job. If you're experienced you can schedule three of those jobs the same day in 2/3rds the time. I remember brake work and seeing 5 cars being done at the same time by just one mechanic. He'd have two on a lift, 3 on jack stands outside. Rotors/pads and bleed in a blink. $300 per axle.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Toyota/Lexus do bend over backwards to take care of their customers by and large, even if it is the owner's fault. I cannot even make a guess as to how many cupholders I replaced on Lexus vehicles simply because some yuppie dumped some sugar-laden Cappuccino in them sticking the internal mechanism. Could have been cleaned with hot water, but warranty will not pay to clean someone's car, as that is NOT warrantable, but they will pay to replace a "defective" cupholder:rolleyes:

We replaced $700 door panels constantly because people slammed the door with the seatbelt buckle stuck between the seat frame and the door.:rolleyes:

That's why I have always said if you do not treat your car like you treat your children then a German car is not for you.
 

mckannick

Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Location
50 miles south of Atlanta
TDI
2000 New Beetle TDI
An offended mechanic.

Well, I'm starting off my first post on a bit of the negative side.
Just bought a 2000 New Beetle TDI on Saturday, 6-10, with 78,000 on the dial.
Drove it home at 70+ for about 100 miles. Got to checking around and sure enough, the Original timing belt was on it. :eek:
Hop on the net, do a search for VW shops, found a few within 25 miles, pick one that's looking 'good' by the web site (inflated?)testimonials. Tiptoe the car over and left it for The Big $ervice, telling them the car is also missing the locking lug bolt tool and the radio it on 'safe' mode from the battery being taken off or whatever..

Well, I walk in there this afternoon. As we say down hea in Jawja, 'Them goobers ain't got nary a tool to their name.' Nope, not a single 'required' timing belt special tool. No cam bar, no pump pin, crank lock --- nuttin. They also 'found' the oil pan plug to be stripped. And took an air chisel to the left rear locking lug bolt, because his 'extractor' tool wouldn't fit into the keyway. So, I ask the kid, "Hey, you reckon that thar tar gonna last 'nuther hunnert thousand mile? It sho don't look like I kin get thet wheel offa there!" (You got to speak the lingo, or they look at you funny.) Kid just grins kind of stupid like. :p

At this point I'm too P.O.'ed to make any more pleasant chit-chat, so I leave. On the way home, I get more and more steamed. Even though its now after shop hours, I call 'em up and tell the answering machine 'just stop what you're doing and don't even try to crank the car. If you can't get simple things like lug bolts and drain plugs out without killing them, don't even go any further with the belt job. Just tow it on up to the VW dealer so it can be finished right.' Well, surprise, about 7:30 this German accent calls me up all 'offended' that I'm dissin' his rep. Well, 'scuse me, but from appearance, it looked like a hack job to me! :rolleyes:

He rants and goes on how great his reputation is for serviceing der car for vorty years, skinning der kats diverent vays mithout tools (mechanical cats I guess) und I tell you yer kar vill be perrvect as I am finished.

I get him calmed down enough to have conversation without too much accent to understand, then we discuss the way I always did it when I was a professional Master Tech, with every proper tool I could lay my hands (and budget) on, by the book and done right to the absolute best I could do it versus his seat of the pants und der big hammer.

Anyway after about 30 minutes, we agree I'll pick up the car on Saturday, which is the soonest I can get it. Und if der kar isn't perrvect, I vill introduce him to a fine old southern lawyer. ;)

Stay tuned for further developments.
The one good point I did see, was that there wasn't much sludge build up in the head around the camshaft area, leading to the assumption that maybe the car at least had some oil changes.
 
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BrianCT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
USA
TDI
TDI
mckannick said:
..then we discuss the way I always did it when I was a professional Master Tech, with every proper tool I could lay my hands (and budget) on, by the book and done right to the absolute best I could do it versus his seat of the pants und der big hammer....
Sie sprechen ein schreckliches deutsches!:(

Do yourself a favour and do it yourself, at least the next time, saving the agony and mechanical abuse of a car that could run 400,000 miles with proper tender care. Go to a GTG [Get-2-Gether] and read the 101 on timing belts, read the instructions, buy or barrow the tools and perform it yourself. Do your intake cleaning too.

Intake Manifold Cleaning 101
DIESEL PURGE HOW TO

Brian
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
You cannot do the job correctly without the tools and software. Period. It will be done wrong. It may run, but it will not be done correctly.

And your German friend may have been working on Volkswagens for forty years, but the diesels have only been around in 'dub land for about 30, and TDI's for a fraction of that!

And FWIW, diesel Volkswagens NEVER sludge up under the valve cover. Even if oil changes are not kept up, the oil will be black always and the engine's innards will always stay clean.

I find it very interesting that a shop that says they work on them doesn't have the proper tools. For a teeny tiny investment for a business, it is such a silly farce not to have them on hand. I'm sorry to say your car will not be right and you will join the masses of people who end up hating thier Volkswagen due to poor [improper] service. It's a shame since the A4 TDI's timing belt job is so easy and virtually idiot proof if you follow the procedure correctly and use the correct tools and use the proper scan tool software to calibrate everything when completed. :(
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Gosh, I didn't even think about that! :eek: I had one of those towed in once....what a mess. I tell ya if the mount bolts are overtightened and/or reused and the engine falls out it gets really, really ugly. Broken wires, broken hoses, busted radiator, mangled A/C compressor, bent downpipe, cracked air tubes, broken axle flange seals, big ol' hole scorched through the oil pan, oil and coolant all over the place, you name it. It is BAD news.

I guess that is yet another plus for the steel skidplate: it'll hold the engine in the car while [hopefully] safely pull to the side of the road!:eek: Boy that would have saved that guy a lot of money.
 

wny_pat

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Location
Western New York State
TDI
2002 Jetta TDI
oilhammer said:
I find it very interesting that a shop that says they work on them doesn't have the proper tools. For a teeny tiny investment for a business, it is such a silly farce not to have them on hand.
I know of two independent VW shops who refuse to work on TDIs because they know nothing about them, don't have the proper diesel tools or VAG-Com. They both come right out and admit that they know nothing about the TDI engine, and they both have enough work that they don't want to learn about them. These two guys I trust to work on the "rest" of my VW!
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
That's kind of sad, too. Seems like they'd be turning lots of work away. I certainly do not turn gasser Volkswagens away!

And the gas cars require a good VAG-specific scan too, and they also require a bunch of special tools. You ought to see the huge cam lock bar for the 5-valve V6!:eek: What about the spark plug wire pullers for the VR6 and 2.0L crossflow? Or the inline-5 cylinder crank bolt removal tools? The 1.8t timing belt tensioner lock plate? The "polydrive" headbolt tool that the 1.8t and many V6/V8s have? SSTs are not limited to just Volkswagen's diesels! Heck I have a whole cabinet dedicated to nothing but VW/Audi SSTs, and only about 10% of them are diesel-specific. That's why I say it would be a relatively small investment for a good shop that specializes in Volkswagen/Audi products.

Germans just love thier special tools! :D
 

tmleadr03

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Location
Aurora, CO
TDI
2012 Jetta
oilhammer said:
That's kind of sad, too. Seems like they'd be turning lots of work away. I certainly do not turn gasser Volkswagens away!

And the gas cars require a good VAG-specific scan too, and they also require a bunch of special tools. You ought to see the huge cam lock bar for the 5-valve V6!:eek: What about the spark plug wire pullers for the VR6 and 2.0L crossflow? Or the inline-5 cylinder crank bolt removal tools? The 1.8t timing belt tensioner lock plate? The "polydrive" headbolt tool that the 1.8t and many V6/V8s have? SSTs are not limited to just Volkswagen's diesels! Heck I have a whole cabinet dedicated to nothing but VW/Audi SSTs, and only about 10% of them are diesel-specific. That's why I say it would be a relatively small investment for a good shop that specializes in Volkswagen/Audi products.

Germans just love thier special tools! :D
I have heard it said by some BMW techs that BMW is a tool company that happens to build cars too, from what your saying VW/Audi is the same.
 

mckannick

Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2006
Location
50 miles south of Atlanta
TDI
2000 New Beetle TDI
Torque / yeilds??

You're saying VW uses torque / yeilds on motor mounts?!? Criminy, if Theo don'k even use proper tools, there ain't no way he'd put new bolts like that in.:(
I went by the shop tonight and was completely surprised to see my new(but used) lil' buggy sitting there buzzing away like nothing wrong ever happened. I'll be back tomorrow morning to pick 'er up and test drive. IF he's even got one, I'm going to have him use the computer to pull up the
Say, any you fellas have a link to the torque spec listings without having to buy a manual, CD or subscription? I'd like to get all the numbers from lug bolts to license plate nuts.
 

BrianCT

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 11, 2006
Location
USA
TDI
TDI
mckannick said:
You're saying VW uses torque / yeilds on motor mounts?!?...
ONE TIME USE torque to yield bolts [stretch bolts] on motor mounts and injector pump.

They'll reuse the old bolts. They'll say they've never had to replace these bolts. They'll also say they're experts and stuff.:rolleyes:

Then your motor drops to the ground, sooner or later. They are one time use bolts. Once removed they are useless. The last quarter turn on these bolts "stretches" the bolt and renders it as a one time use only.

Good luck.

Even dealers never replace them ,... because they are SUPER HEROS, defying gravity, jumping tall motor mounts in a single bound and leaping planets in our galaxies.

 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
mckannick said:
You're saying VW uses torque / yeilds on motor mounts?!? Criminy, if Theo don'k even use proper tools, there ain't no way he'd put new bolts like that in.:(
I went by the shop tonight and was completely surprised to see my new(but used) lil' buggy sitting there buzzing away like nothing wrong ever happened. I'll be back tomorrow morning to pick 'er up and test drive. IF he's even got one, I'm going to have him use the computer to pull up the
Say, any you fellas have a link to the torque spec listings without having to buy a manual, CD or subscription? I'd like to get all the numbers from lug bolts to license plate nuts.
I sent you a Private Message with the contact info for David Brubaker... try and get him to give your car the once-over... just to see that there isn't anything that they did to your car that can give you headaches in the near future...

Good luck,

Yuri.

PS: see if you can make it to the next Get-Together:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=142111
 
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