are additives to fuel necessary???

Jack_Berry

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straightliner, there is a flying j on 65 south of 80 this would be a good place to fuel. anyplace with constant trucking activity has a small nozzle diesel pump in the gasser islands. it draws from the same tank. go there.

somehthing i see in every truck stop is stanadyne, seafoam and ps. must be a reason for it. the audience is certainly there.
 

TornadoRed

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Jack_Berry said:
straightliner, there is a flying j on 65 south of 80 this would be a good place to fuel. anyplace with constant trucking activity has a small nozzle diesel pump in the gasser islands. it draws from the same tank. go there.
They don't always draw from the same tank.

If you go here http://www.flyingj.com/fuel/diesel_CF.cfm?state=ALL you'll see that some Flying J truckstops have both LSD and ULSD. If it shows both, the the car/RV islands get the LSD, and the OTR truck islands get the ULSD. (It won't be long before the LSD is totally phased out.)

If they only show ULSD, then all islands get the same quality fuel. And probably from the same underground tanks.
 

Thorne

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Here's a new reason for the fuel additives, as it looks like switching betwen LSD, ULSD and BD **may** cause the fuel pump seals to harden and not recover.

From the Berkeley BioFuel Oasis website -

Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel Warning: [back to top] Possible Fuel Pump Failure in VW TDIs, post ‘99 Mercedes SDs, or any diesel with an injector pump lubricated with fuel - We’ve seen a sharp rise in injector pump failures, a previously rare occurrence, since California switched to Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) in October 2006. ULSD is causing problems in all types of diesel engines around the country because of its lack of lubricity and seal-shrinking properties. After surveying our customers and talking to diesel engineers and mechanics we’ve reached the following conclusions:
How could ULSD cause fuel pump failure? Injector pump seals: The original formulation of petroleum diesel caused pump seals to swell, and biodiesel swells seals even more. ULSD causes the seals to shrink and harden. Too many changes can damage the seals and the pump will leak fuel and/or suck in air. Most of the failures due to damaged seals have occurred in cars that have run on all three types of fuel. Three or four fuel changes are simply too many. Injector pump seals that are only exposed to two types of fuel, biodiesel and ULSD, are apparently not failing. It is likely that injector pump seals that have never been exposed to the pre-’06 blend of diesel will be OK.
Mechanical wear: ULSD is very low in lubricity, which is not good for pumps lubricated with fuel. Both biodiesel and ULSD attract water, and water causes rust, which is abrasive. Recommendations:Cars that have run on pre-’06 diesel:
  • Avoid running ULSD after switching to biodiesel. If you cannot get biodiesel when you are on the road, add the ULSD when you’ve still got at least 1/4 tank of biodiesel so that you are running a blend and not making an abrupt switch.
  • Use a diesel fuel conditioner, such as Stanadyne, when you do not have access to biodiesel. 3 oz. of conditioner per tank of ULSD will replace the lubricity properties of biodiesel.
  • Consider a preemptive injector pump rebuild, especially before a road trip that will take you away from biodiesel sources. A planned repair is a lot less expensive and inconvenient than an unplanned one. The new seals that have never been exposed to pre ‘06 sulfured diesel will theoretically be less likely to fail
Cars that have not run on pre-’06 diesel, or had injector pump rebuilds after October 2006:
  • Current evidence shows no problems with switching back and forth between biodiesel and ULSD, but be cautious anyway. Avoid abrupt switches in fuel types whenever possible; blend fuel types between changes. Biodiesel swells seals and ULSD shrinks them, so switching back and forth can theoretically strain seals. ULSD has only been around for a year - It may simply take more time for problems caused by fuel changes to surface.
  • Use a fuel conditioner when running ULSD.
All diesels running either biodiesel or ULSD — avoid rust:
  • Keep your tank full overnight when the days are warm and the nights are cold. Less air in the tank means less water condensation.
  • Use a fuel conditioner.
  • Add a water separator to your fuel system .
Don’t get ripped off If your injector pump does fail!
  • First, try switching back to biodiesel. Several people have reported that running at least 30% biodiesel re-swells the injector pump seals and stops the leaking. Let the injector pump absorb the biodiesel for 24 hours or more before giving up.
  • Avoid the dealer unless you can get the repair done under warranty. VW dealers typically charge $3k to replace your injector pump and fuel injectors and purge your entire fuel system. The same repair done at an independent garage typically costs half or less of what VW charges. Dealers are also notorious for diagnosing all fuel system problems in cars with biodiesel stickers as injector pump failures, and have recommended $3k repairs when they simply failed to bleed the air out of a new fuel filter.
  • If something doesn’t feel right always get a second opinion before agreeing to an expensive repair.
Where to go for Injector Pump Rebuild:These business only rebuild pumps and do not work on cars. Have your pump removed and send it to:
  • Diesel Fuel Injection Service, 8922 NE Vancouver Way. Portland, OR 97211. (503) 235-1947.
    OR
  • Diamond Diesel, 2550 East 12th Street, Oakland, CA 94601, (510) 532-8500AND
  • Use Viton seals: Viton TDI injector pump o ring seals are available from dieselgeek.com. They also sell the basic Bosh rebuild kit if you want to do the repair yourself.
 

Tin Man

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That's nice

"Use a fuel conditioner" with no, I repeat, absolutely no evidence that it would make any difference.

TM
 

csblunt

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Jetta '03 - Silver
I wanted to throw a couple cents in regarding fuel mileage - I too use to believe that Power Service every fill-up contributed to increase fuel mileage; however I have done some analysis which (in my opinion) indicates that PS really doesn't gain much if any MPG.
For a period from 3/14/2007 - 9/29/2007 (199 days) I used NO Power-Service. Used 294.8 Gallons of fuel and drove 13,829 Miles for a MPG of 46.91.

In 2008 during apx. the same period of time (3/5/2008 - 10/2/2008) I USED Power Service every fill up. Used 259.8 Gallons of Fuel, drove 12,177.5 Miles for a MPG of 46.97 - so MPG improvement for similar periods of time, similar miles, over apx. 6 month = .06 MPG improvement.

I will say that this isn't a scientific LAB test in a controlled environment; however, My travel / fill patterns have been pretty consistent over the past couple of years - so it should have some accuracy to it.
 

TornadoRed

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csblunt said:
I wanted to throw a couple cents in regarding fuel mileage - I too use to believe that Power Service every fill-up contributed to increase fuel mileage; however I have done some analysis which (in my opinion) indicates that PS really doesn't gain much if any MPG.
MPG depends on BTUs, not cetane. There is no additive that can increase the BTUs per gallon.

But a little cetane boost can improve performance and help easier starting. An emulsifier can prevent getting clumps of water in the fuel. Something to improve lubricity can prolong the life of the injection pump. And at least some additives have other qualifications.
 

Tin Man

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Sure. Improving mpg by .06 mpg CAN happen when adding additives - the additive is mostly diesel fuel!

Trouble with most additives: no data, no studies, no specific information is given regarding performance, just generalizations. The same occurs with dietary supplements to lose weight: the pills have fiber which will help lose .06 lbs, thus the accuracy of the claims cannot be challenged.

TM
 

Tin Man

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tditom said:
I agree that there have been offers from snake-oil salemen that should be ignored. I don't put FPPF, Power Service, Stanadyne in that class. They each make products that specifically were designed to improve lubrication.

Lubricity matters to ALL tight tolerance diesel fuel injection systems. Lubricity in ULSD is a known problem that the oil company's have been concerned about. They have settled on a test that allows a certain amount of wear to the fuel injection components. The maker of our fuel injection systems has determined that a lower limit of wear is allowable. Because of the FI mfr having a tighter tolerance than the fuel industry, I will encourage people to use a lubricity additive until we are quite confident that there are no problems with the fuel as it shows up at the pump.

Do you know if you are using ULSD yet? Its great to have people like you who are willing to go along with the oil company's claims that the lubricity of ULSD is "good enough". Please report back in 6 years when we know that ULSD will have been at all the pumps for a significant amount of time. Then we'll know that the lubricity additives have been a waste of time.
The CDI has 161,000 miles now. Daily driver and long trips. Brand name diesel (mostly). No additives. No fuel pump failure. Still has the same fuel economy (typical: 36 mpg at 80 mph on flat land). For whatever that is worth - still only anecdotal. Where are all the pump failures form "poor lubricity?" - enquiring minds want to know.

TM
 

TornadoRed

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cloud09 said:
Here's a thread on another forum which reveals some study results on many diesel fuel additives. It's worth reading and more informative than anything I've read any where else.

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728
Spicer's test has been discussed previously. There are questions about the validity, about whether the "worst" additives were really worse than the "best", and so on.

One conclusion that seems irrefutable: If lubricity is the only thing you want to measure, then a 2% biodiesel blend (B02) is better (and probably cheaper) than any commercial additive on the market today.

If you want an additive that improves the cetane number, and demulsifies any water globules in the fuel, and lubricates the injection pump and injection system, and neutralizes corrosive acids in the fuel, then the Spicer test doesn't measure that. The worst additive tested, according to Spicer, is the one I've used for the last five years (Primrose 405-C), and I'm still on the original injection pump and have no other injection system problems. (Except for a one-time gelling problem at minus 10-15° and the station where I bought the fuel did not sufficiently winterize -- I've never bought from them again, summer or winter.)

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=106817

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=146380

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=188584
 
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mrGutWrench

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Tin Man said:
Fair enough. One failure. Did you use additives? TM
__. I did in my sedan that got totalled by a drunk at about 130K; I do in the replacement car but the misfire and unstable IQ was there when I got it at 115K. Despite the additive, the wear continued. My car was "off lease" and hadn't been taken care of for the first 115K (the timing belt hadn't been done). I'm going to guess that she hadn't used any more additive than she'd have the cabin filter changed (the one I took out of it weighed about 5 pounds).

__. I can't prove anything but until the guys from Bosch are dancing in the street because US diesel fuel is as good a lube as they want, I'm using additive.
 

Tin Man

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mrGutWrench said:
__. I did in my sedan that got totalled by a drunk at about 130K; I do in the replacement car but the misfire and unstable IQ was there when I got it at 115K. Despite the additive, the wear continued. My car was "off lease" and hadn't been taken care of for the first 115K (the timing belt hadn't been done). I'm going to guess that she hadn't used any more additive than she'd have the cabin filter changed (the one I took out of it weighed about 5 pounds).

__. I can't prove anything but until the guys from Bosch are dancing in the street because US diesel fuel is as good a lube as they want, I'm using additive.
Like I said, where are the pump failures? If an additive was used and the wear continued, where is the logic?

If the "guys from Bosch" could not convince a panel of experts at ASTM, why would "some guy on the Internet" or a Slick 50 style pitch have any more validity?

TM
 

mrGutWrench

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Tin Man said:
Like I said, where are the pump failures? If an additive was used and the wear continued, where is the logic?

If the "guys from Bosch" could not convince a panel of experts at ASTM, why would "some guy on the Internet" or a Slick 50 style pitch have any more validity? TM
__. I'm convinced that the wear (the high pressure pump internals were flapping around like a buncha dicks in a retirement home) happened before I got the car. The fact that I used additive after I got it couldn't save it. Performance did improve after I got a couple of tanks with additive through it but then it slowly slumped back to as bad as it was when I got it.

__. I don't know that not running additives damaged it or that running additives would have prevented damage early on or that additives delayed the inevitable. But I know that my Ipump was trashed -- worn out -- at 170K miles (110K on that "good" CARB fuel in CA) and it cost me $800 to get it rebuilt.

__. I'll never run another tank through a TDI without additive.
 

XXX_er

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I used howes in my 2001 and had no problems ,traded it at 96,000km

Other than some 911 when it gets colder than -20C if I remember , I havent bothered to use anything in my 2002 ,no problems at 260,000km
 

Tin Man

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mrGutWrench said:
__. I'm convinced that the wear (the high pressure pump internals were flapping around like a buncha dicks in a retirement home) happened before I got the car. The fact that I used additive after I got it couldn't save it. Performance did improve after I got a couple of tanks with additive through it but then it slowly slumped back to as bad as it was when I got it.

__. I don't know that not running additives damaged it or that running additives would have prevented damage early on or that additives delayed the inevitable. But I know that my Ipump was trashed -- worn out -- at 170K miles (110K on that "good" CARB fuel in CA) and it cost me $800 to get it rebuilt.

__. I'll never run another tank through a TDI without additive.
Lets see: fuel starvation? water in the fuel? use of pre ULSD that may have poor lubricity (yes, ULSD standards state overall improvement over previous available diesel), putting gasoline in by mistake, poor warm up, lead-foot driving? Wonder if careful driving and good maintenance would have made a difference.

Maybe some data on decreased lubricity with PS additive could convince?

New report: New fuel pumps made for US market to have an extra coating for durability: see this thread.

But the whole ULSD lubricity thing comes from fuel pump manufacturer concerns for future engine designs.

TM
 

Cool Breeze

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Tin Man said:
Lets see: fuel starvation? water in the fuel? use of pre ULSD that may have poor lubricity (yes, ULSD standards state overall improvement over previous available diesel), putting gasoline in by mistake, poor warm up, lead-foot driving? Wonder if careful driving and good maintenance would have made a difference.



New report: New fuel pumps made for US market to have an extra coating for durability: see this thread.
Red Herring in my opinion, but I have to ask. Where does Ferrari come into play?
 

Cool Breeze

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Tin Man said:
Like I said, where are the pump failures? If an additive was used and the wear continued, where is the logic?

If the "guys from Bosch" could not convince a panel of experts at ASTM, why would "some guy on the Internet" or a Slick 50 style pitch have any more validity?

TM
Can you be any more disengenious? Slick 50? Really? Just leave people be. There is one fact and that's that nobody has reported a problem while using an additive so does it REALLY matter? No. Your one sample isn't any more or less valid than the lack of HPFP failures so dare I say "let sleeping dogs lie".

:rolleyes:
 

Tin Man

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Cool Breeze said:
Can you be any more disingenuous? Slick 50? Really? Just leave people be. There is one fact and that's that nobody has reported a problem while using an additive so does it REALLY matter? No. Your one sample isn't any more or less valid than the lack of HPFP failures so dare I say "let sleeping dogs lie".

:rolleyes:
I'd really like to know. I also put more trust in the automotive engineers and fuel engineers than in the aftermarket additive makers. So as an unbeliever, I'm in a pickle.

But from your point of view, we should all take vitamins, even when we know that some vitamins do more harm than good.

And what about Ferrari's?

TM
 

Cool Breeze

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Tin Man said:
I'd really like to know. I also put more trust in the automotive engineers and fuel engineers than in the aftermarket additive makers. So as an unbeliever, I'm in a pickle.

But from your point of view, we should all take vitamins, even when we know that some vitamins do more harm than good.

And what about Ferrari's?

TM
And dihydrogen monoxide will kill you if ingested in large amounts as well. As for ferrari..click on your link titled thread
 

Tin Man

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Cool Breeze said:
And dihydrogen monoxide will kill you if ingested in large amounts as well. As for ferrari..click on your link titled thread
LOL. Must have been doing too much copy and pasting! I'll get the right one later!

TM
 

Tin Man

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Cool Breeze said:
Congrats..looks like a new and improved pump will be available to you in 20 k miles. :D *Joking of course*
Makes my argument that there is motivation on the part of the fuel pump makers to push for a lower wear scar standard other than the "general good." They want to spend less on making their fuel pumps for more profits.

TM
 

Cool Breeze

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Tin Man said:
Makes my argument that there is motivation on the part of the fuel pump makers to push for a lower wear scar standard other than the "general good." They want to spend less on making their fuel pumps for more profits.

TM
OR maybe VW/MB/BMW got on them over their "460um wear scar is min" press release.
 
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