Mazda SkyActiv Diesel Engine

993er

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In Europe 40% of cars are diesel, and in America it is less than 5%; an increase to 40% would hurt the oil industry of North America for at least 10 years.
I'm in Europe every summer and I would think the number is much higher than 40%.

The only thing helping us at this moment is the CAFE 2016 Goal of 38.5 MPG, and perhaps not much in view of HYBRID MARKETING...
I thought about that. But is simply having an ultra fuel efficient car in your line-up good enough to satisfy CAFE or do you actually have to sell them. Having one available that does not sell is BS if only to satisfy some CAFE numbers.
 

bhtooefr

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Unless you subsidize it with your less efficient models.

VW has been known to do "buy a V10 Touareg, get a free 2.5 Rabbit" promotions to move units...
 

kjclow

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I thought about that. But is simply having an ultra fuel efficient car in your line-up good enough to satisfy CAFE or do you actually have to sell them. Having one available that does not sell is BS if only to satisfy some CAFE numbers.
Not positive but I think the CAFE calculation is supposed to be on the vehicles sold, not just sitting on the lot.
 

Spiked1Z

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They were good enough to win the Grand Am GX class in 2012 winning almost all the races... not sure why Mazda's dragging their feet... Lets do a Rotary Diesel instead muhahahaha!
 

GoFaster

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At 94 pages of threads on the subject, I have to admit I haven't read them.

So the question is, what is the issue?

The Mazda 6 diesel is available in Europe and Japan to mention a few.
US EPA Tier 2 NOx emission limits are somewhat tighter than Euro 6 NOx emission limits. Obviously since that engine is sold in other worldwide markets, it meets Euro 6 without NOx aftertreatment, but it appears from the articles that the situation is borderline for the tighter US EPA standard on NOx unless they hobble the car's performance to an extent that Mazda does not want to do.

I am not surprised in the slightest.

I've read elsewhere that Mazda is already working on 2nd-generation Skyactiv gasoline engines, which will be using HCCI. At that point, there pretty much ceases to be a distinction between a gasoline engine and a diesel engine. They may just opt to skip the diesel for the current generation since the next generation would render it redundant anyhow.
 

kjclow

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I've read elsewhere that Mazda is already working on 2nd-generation Skyactiv gasoline engines, which will be using HCCI. At that point, there pretty much ceases to be a distinction between a gasoline engine and a diesel engine. They may just opt to skip the diesel for the current generation since the next generation would render it redundant anyhow.
Until CARB insists that gasoline cars have to have a particulate filter too.
 

bhtooefr

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They were good enough to win the Grand Am GX class in 2012 winning almost all the races... not sure why Mazda's dragging their feet... Lets do a Rotary Diesel instead muhahahaha!
The GX class does not have to meet US on-highway emissions standards, and there was little competition for Mazda. (Yes, some Porsche Caymans... that were bone stock with cages welded in, when the Mazdas were tube-frame specials that had heavily modified engines and were RWD.)
 

john.jackson9213

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I have yet to see a GM Cruze Diesel on the road or the showroom; they said they aren't getting them in when I stopped in to get a part for a neighbor's car.
I don't know where you are in North America, but I test drove the Chevy Cruze months ago here in San Diego. Engine seemed just fine. But I would not want the Cruze, gas or diesel.
 

KpaxFAQ

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At 94 pages of threads on the subject, I have to admit I haven't read them.
So the question is, what is the issue?
The Mazda 6 diesel is available in Europe and Japan to mention a few.
Or is it politics to keep more diesels out of the North American continent because the big three are not up to speed on them? I have yet to see a GM Cruze Diesel on the road or the showroom; they said they aren't getting them in when I stopped in to get a part for a neighbor's car.
I've been driving mine for 4 months and 5,000 miles, there's a cruzetalk member with 38k on his diesel already....3,000 sold as of 12/31/13
 

rotarykid

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At 94 pages of threads on the subject, I have to admit I haven't read them.

So the question is, what is the issue?

The Mazda 6 diesel is available in Europe and Japan to mention a few.

Or is it politics to keep more diesels out of the North American continent because the big three are not up to speed on them? I have yet to see a GM Cruze Diesel on the road or the showroom; they said they aren't getting them in when I stopped in to get a part for a neighbor's car.


Not positive but I think the CAFE calculation is supposed to be on the vehicles sold, not just sitting on the lot.
They have sold the Mazda Skyactive diesels in Australia for ~18 months now. In Australia where they have been sold for ~2 model years now they have had oil overfill issues from the engine's off stroke injection events. Those off stroke injection events to make the emissions function were ending up in the crankcase. They claim a reprogramming of the off stroke injection events remedied the problem. But the engine is back at ground zero when comes to passing EPA/CARB emissions...

_________________________________________________________

And the way CAFE works is, Automakers must sell "X" number of units to raise the CAFE to meet each years' goals in law. They have an idea how many units that will be each year from previous unit sales across the brand. So they produce just enough fuel efficient units(diesel & hybrids) to keep numbers in the green.

Now if unexpectedly one of their fuel wasting offerings sells better than expected they must produce and sell more of the fuel sipping offerings to produce more gas guzzling offerings.

So, yes they must sell a certain number of fuel sipping diesels or hybrids to sell the gas guzzling models to reach required average CAFE for each model year...

No one other than VW is selling diesels here for the fun of it! They all are now being required starting in the 2014 model year to meet increasing CAFE numbers. And by the ~2016-2018 or so all automakers will be required to offer at least some diesel powered offerings to meet CAFE requirements. Hybrids help but just aren't going to enough in bigger vehicles...

_______________________________________________________


And on the Cruise TD, you aren't looking very hard if you haven't found one. I guarantee at least one dealer in your area has several sitting on their lot. They have been offered coast to coast since ~September. I drove the first one in Denver in early June. Every dealer in the Colorado region has had 4 to 6 diesels on the lot for sale, replacing them when sold since June 2013....

On why they went on sale from the end of April to the beginning of June 2013 as a 2014 model year offering. They started with earlier than normal sales sales to give enough time to sell enough units to bring up CAFE numbers in autos in the model year 2014.......
 

kjclow

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Just took a quick glance and found four Cruze diesels in the Charlotte area. Probably more out there.
 

TDIMeister

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As early as April 2011 it was already posted in this thread that Mazda would not be able to meet T2B5 without NOx aftertreatment.
 

kjclow

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Interesting quote from the artilce:
"Meanwhile, rival Volkswagen continues to build on its pole position in the growing U.S. market for clean diesel, with about 75 percent of all sales, while sibling luxury brand Audi Audi now offers TDI clean-diesel engine options across nearly its entire American lineup of volume vehicles."

And here I was thinking that VWs North American diesel sales were only around 40% total. Silly me! IIRC, the JSW/Golf Wagen are selling about 70% diesel but not the whole line up.
 

TDIMeister

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The article means that of all Diesel passenger car sales across ALL makes in the US market, VW accounts for 75%.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Didn't someone post here that 23% of VW's sales are diesels? It certainly isn't 40%. Even if Audi has several diesels (not what I'd call a full line since it's biggest seller, the A4, doesn't have one here), they're a niche player and the diesels are a segment of that niche. Their sales volume is dwarfed by Jetta S and SE gassers.
 

TDIMeister

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On PM emissions, it is not realistic that Euro-6 and Tier2 Bin5 will be met while allowing for sufficient margins for manufacturing and operating variabilities without a DPF. The video implied not needing NOx aftertreatment, but by not saying anything explicitly about the DPF implies that one is fitted.
Also, while is it plausible that the SKY-D could meet Euro-6 without NOx aftertreatment, it's almost certainly not going to get away with meeting T2B5 without it. T2B5 is substantially stricter for NOx than even Euro-6, and the US FTP75/US06/SCO3 driving cycles are much more stringent than the NEDC with incursions into higher load, higher emissions regimes..
Yes but in the coldest of days, if you have total- or near-total failure of combustion, drawing back exhaust gas will not help very much (and you'll be drawing only fairly cold gases anyway - the thermal inertia is such that you can touch an exhaust manifold of a stone cold engine that just started for quite a few seconds).
So let's look at "Japan's tough new emissions standards" and compare that against the US, shall we?
http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/jp/onroad.php
The CX5 is certainly >1250 kg, so the NOx limit is 0.08 g/km under the 2009+ regulations. The JC08 is relatively undemanding cycle in terms of NOx compared to the US' FTP75+US06+SC03 (the latter with air-conditioning on). T2B5 limits NOx to 0.05 g/mile within 5 years. That's 0.031 g/km (US) vs. 0.08 g/km (Japan) on a much more stringent test cycle no less!
I don't have any confidence that the Skyactiv-D will meet US NOx emissions without "expensive aftertreatment" aside from just trivial calibration, or meet the lofty fuel economy expectations placed upon it.
But as Harvieux says, W** do I know, eh? Later! :D Read this space in 2013 whether I'm right or wrong. That's if we even see this engine stateside at all....
This is just my thought, but...
I think the answer of the exhaust manifold fitment is just a canard, something made up by the marketing department. From the engine engineering point of view, here's what's more likely going on. The current trend for emissions control is what's called a "close-coupled" three-way catalyst. This places the cat as close as possible to the exhaust ports so that heat loss is minimized in order to get the cat up to light-off temperature as quickly as possible. Almost ALL of a car's HC emissions take place during the cold running phase before the catalyst lights-off; beyond that, conversion efficiencies are almost 100% and therefore the remaining 95% of the drive cycle is pretty much irrelevant to HC emissions.
A long primary header is precisely the opposite of what you would want to achieve from the standpoint of placing the cat as close as possible to the exhaust valve. I showed here that the Japanese JC08 test cycle is relatively undemanding compared to the US' FTP75+US06+SC03. Also, Japanese regulations limit HC emissions at 0.024 g/km, whereas US T2B5 is 0.015 g/mile (converted, 0.0093 g/km). Despite the different test cycles, strictly on a quantity basis, T2B5 is still over 60% more stringent than the Japanese limits.
Mazda must have been extremely optimistic to assume that the design for the Sky-G's exhaust manifold and catalyst, which could meet Japanese regulations, could also meet T2B5 with only trivial changes.
I don't buy for a second the fitment argument. No OEM company can be so short-sighted not to develop one component like an exhaust manifold for a forecasted model application. I can go out and buy an aftermarket header for a Mazda3, which still allows me to retain a catalyst, and be done with it.
It had been reported that the Mazda3, in which the Sky-G would make its introduction in North America, could not accommodate this manifold system within its packaging constraints in time, an argument which I had mused is a convenient excuse made up for the masses who don't know engine design and development processes better. Rather, I'm 99.99999999999999% certain that, like recent revelations that that the Sky-D will probably NOT come to North America, it's an emissions compliance issue and anything else is just a red-herring.
A couple of quotes and technical highlights from the paper and then some commentary from me.
Source: Terazawa, Y. et al, The New Mazda Four-Cylinder Diesel Engine, MTZ worldwide Edition: 2011-09
  • Complies with Euro 6 standard without EITHER SCR or NSC (NOx storage catalyst) - no idea about T2B5, but not safe to ass-u-me the same also applies for the latter standard.
  • Does not use LP-EGR. Instead, HP-EGR and internal EGR through twice-opening of exhaust valves (second time when intake valves are also open. Very high EGR rates are used, this was repeated over and over again in the paper.
  • "The twice-opening exhaust valves operate
    by opening slightly during the intake
    stroke, thus sucking the hot exhaust gas
    back into the cylinder and increasing the
    in-cylinder temperature. The Skyactiv-D
    is the first diesel engine to adopt a cam-profile switching variable valve lift for an
    exhaust valve operating system. With the
    combination of the variable valve lift
    system and the previously mentioned
    mechanical friction reduction, Mazda
    could confirm that the Skyactiv-D is able
    to start at ambient temperature of -25 °C
    even with a compression ratio of e= 14.
    This aim was achieved by fuel with a
    cetane number of 40 and TDC combustion
    that took place without misfiring."
  • Combustion process is predicated on a high degree of premixing together with lots of EGR.
  • Ignition delays are long with low CR and high EGR; therefore injection timings are greatly advanced relative to conventional engines and other measures are done to shorten this delay. Up to 4 pilot-injections per cycle are illustrated.
  • "enlarged premixed combustion area, and controlled fuel injection timing through ignition delay prediction."
  • Improvements in the design measures of the combustion chamber geometry shortens the duration of the diffusion combustion phase.
  • Some ~20 g/kWh reduction in BSFC seen @2000 RPM and 2/6 bar BMEP compared to the previous Mazda 2.2 Diesel. That's around 5-8% improvement.
  • Conventional Diesel (pre-Skyactiv model) shown in the paper to have MFB50% of ~20° ATDC at 2000 RPM / 6 bar BMEP, which I consider significantly retarded. Skyactiv has this at around 8-10° ATDC, much closer to the thermodynamic optimal.
  • MFB90° for conventional Diesel is shown to be ~50° ATDC; Skyactiv is ~30°.
Layman's explanation of the above:
  • Still unknown whether North American version (if it even comes at all), will have the same emissions strategy as the European version. If Mazda can indeed pull it off, it would be a good thing. A VERY GOOD thing, in fact. But there are headwinds. Navistar tried something similar - trying to meet 2010 emissions regulations using only lots of EGR and engine design/calibration measures without NOx aftertreatment and failed - miserably. The company has been forced to pay fines and eventually relented and will employ SCR going forward.
  • Efficiency of the engine is good.
  • The design measures are certainly interesting and a different approach from mainstream Diesel practice.
  • Clogged intakes could still be a problem.
  • Let's have the engine available in North America first before speculating too much further.
Well, can't say one didn't see this coming... the problem may not even be the post-injections per se. We know in the VW engines that DPF regenerations typically only take place every 300 miles (500 km) or so and for fairly short periods of time (<15 minutes) at that. See picture below, agrees well with members' anecdotal data here.

The paper I have on the Skyactiv-D shows that it operates with up to 4 pilot injections very well advanced from TDC, which means it's likely that these injections are taking place before the pistons are even at the level that completely confines each pilot spray within the bowl, thereby allowing more opportunity for fuel to reach the cylinder walls and wash down into the crankcase. Also, with a very low compression ratio and very early injections, prevailing combustion chamber temperatures are relatively low, which are ideal conditions for some fuel to remain unburned.
However much fuel is diluting the engine oil to the extent of noticeably raising the crankcase level in the reported cases within 2000 km cannot be explained from ~4 DPF regen events necessitating post-injection at less than 15 minutes each within that mileage interval . The amount of fuel ending up in the crankcase within so relatively few km suggests it's not (just) happening during DPF-regenerating post-injection, but rather pretty much all the time with the very early pilots.
It could be fixed in part by changing the calibration pertaining to the pilot injections (that is if that's even the problem at all - we don't know for sure, it's just speculation).
But if it does, calibration changes of this nature certainly directly affect emissions and throws a wrench into certifying the car for sale in North America, so yes, in this particular scenario it would certainly delay things...
Edit: If the claims of a CY2013 Skyactiv-D introduction are at all credible, then the cars are with high certainty already homologated and certified. Calibration changes can easily be done via an ECU flash at anytime but with regards to the emissions effects of such a move, I don't know how that works regarding EPA/CARB certification.
 

bhtooefr

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Another idea that they could maybe use... A car only needs to meet full load AC emissions testing if it's actually sold from the factory with AC, right?

What about making AC a dealer installed option?

It wouldn't buy them much, but every little bit helps...
 

kjclow

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I remember those days! "Car's all set up for AC, all we need is another $1000." Car only had a sticker price of around $8000 (82 subie wagon)
 

GoFaster

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There is no way you are going to make A/C a dealer installed option in this day and age, and I'm quite sure the EPA would see through the shenanigans and say no to any such attempt.
 

bhtooefr

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The way the rules are written... Two ways it might go. Either the engine is unavailable with AC from the manufacturer and is therefore exempt from AC usage during the tests, or the vehicle is available with it and is therefore required to be tested as if it has it.

Another way to cheat would be a really weak AC system that meets the legal definition, meant to be discarded at PDI.
 

TDI2000Zim

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It's sad when you have to talk someone into letting you disable the DRLs before an emissions test. :rolleyes:
As they taught us in college 30+ years ago, "YOU GOT TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO."

BTW, VW does it too.
 

tdi90hp

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back to regularly scheduled programming.....
So any guesses as to when Mazda will get its act together and bring Diesel to NA since the last delay?
 

bhtooefr

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For what it's worth, looks like they retired from the Rolex 24 with (#70) overheating at 369 laps, and (#07) turbo issues at 445 laps. The winner did 695 laps.
 
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