fuel gelling, starting problems, glow plugs, and fuel additives. HELP!

I live in Maryland, where we have mild winters, but it does get below 32F, and rarely below 0 F. I have never owned a diesel before, and I have some questions for my fellow mid atlanticers.

1) At what point does diesel gel?

2) How does a glow plug work, and at what point will it not help me?

3) Do you use an engine warmer?

4) What fuel additive should I use to pretreat a tank of fuel? Which should I carry with me to save my butt if it gets freaky cold overnight by surprise?

Thanks for the help. This board has been a wealth of info.

fireclown, First, welcome aboard! Read on...you'll learn a lot!

In MD, you don't have to worry about diesel gelling. If you traveled (far)further north, it might be a consideration, though diesel is winterized to prevent this. If you plan to run on biodiesel, you'll want to read alot more on fuel gelling in the cooler weather.

Many folks like powerservice on the board here, but in general, its also personal preference.

I don't use an engine warmer, though on those 5 really cold mornings a year it might be nice.

Good Luck!

fireclown said:

I live in Maryland, where we have mild winters, but it does get below 32F, and rarely below 0 F. I have never owned a diesel before, and I have some questions for my fellow mid atlanticers.

1) At what point does diesel gel?

2) How does a glow plug work, and at what point will it not help me?

3) Do you use an engine warmer?

4) What fuel additive should I use to pretreat a tank of fuel? Which should I carry with me to save my butt if it gets freaky cold overnight by surprise?

Thanks for the help. This board has been a wealth of info.

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#1 @ ~10F (cloud point is ~32F)
#2 They heat the air space within a cylinder to help diesel auto-ignite.
#3 No
#4 Diesel is blended (D1+D2) for winter which lowers the gel point to well below 0F so you being in Maryland should never have to worry about it. You vehicle is also designed to return heated fuel back into the tank so that will also provided added resistance to gelling. Some aftermarket winter additives can lower the gel point to -40F.

In my opinion those who live in the mtns or northern plains are really the only ones who have to ever worry about this kind of thing unless you get caught with summer diesel in your tank while driving to Alaska in Sept .

I love this board. It never sleeps.

-Is powerservice an additive?

-Also, I do end up taking at least one snowboarding trip to new england every winter if I can make it. Should I pretreat the gas beforehand, just in case?

-what does one do if he runs into starting problems? Surely this has happened in the past.

Forgive my concern. I was raised by Methodist Swedes, and am thus very risk averse.

I actually gelled several years ago in about 15 degree windy weather in Sykesville, so I need to differ with Zocco, and have used PS white with every winter tank of fuel since. If you never find you need an anti-gel additive, great. If you are risk averse, or have gelled before, you may want to use one.

FWIW, last winter, I also assisted a pickup that gelled on one of the highways in the same area on winterized diesel. It can happen... even in MD

If you are gelling, you should first notice stumbling at higher RPMs as the fuel filter starts to clog. You can double dose PS white or add PS 911 at that point. As always carry an extra fuel filter on board and the tools to change it, just in case. If the fuel lines are gelled, a no-start can only be remedied by time and warmer temperatures. In my opinion, it is better to ensure that you are running properly maintained fuel, and get to your destination or if needed to pull over with a warm running vehicle to assist a fellow diesel driver that has gelled

I have driven diesels for many years including temps to -27 F with no problems and no addatives.

There are only two times you are likely to run into a problem. First if you are buying fuel in the south and you drive north and if you hit unusually cold weather.

You are more likely to run into bad fuel. Your best defence is to only buy fuel from a busy station (busy at the diesel pump).

When it is really cold you may want to cycle the glow plugs once or twice. When you start up when it is cold enough the plugs say on ??? seconds and when they light goes out you can turn it off and on again to recycle. Likely you will never need to do it.

CsTDI said:

I actually gelled several years ago in about 15 degree windy weather in Sykesville, so I need to differ with Zocco, and have used PS white with every winter tank of fuel since. If you never find you need an anti-gel additive, great. If you are risk averse, or have gelled before, you may want to use one.

FWIW, last winter, I also assisted a pickup that gelled on one of the highways in the same area on winterized diesel. It can happen... even in MD

If you are gelling, you should first notice stumbling at higher RPMs as the fuel filter starts to clog. You can double dose PS white or add PS 911 at that point. As always carry an extra fuel filter on board and the tools to change it, just in case. If the fuel lines are gelled, a no-start can only be remedied by time and warmer temperatures. In my opinion, it is better to ensure that you are running properly maintained fuel, and get to your destination or if needed to pull over with a warm running vehicle to assist a fellow diesel driver that has gelled

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You probably didn't really "gell up". Most likely you had some water in the fuel/filter and it froze at that temp, or anything much below 32F/0C.
Power Service is supposed to adsorb said water and convert it to a state that will stay liquid and pass harmlessly thru the IP, injectors/nozzles. So even though the fuel may be "blended" or have additives added to be OK for your area and time of season, water in the fuel can disable you. I use some each tankfull in below freezing temps-which is about half the year here.

fireclown said:

1) At what point does diesel gel?

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Cool answered. Due to winterizing, the cloud and gel points will drop in local fuels.

fireclown said:

2) How does a glow plug work, and at what point will it not help me?

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A glow plug resembles (somewhat) a longer extended spark plug. The tip has no gap; instead it has a closed end metal extension that has heating coils inside. Somewhere on this site is at least one photo of a glowplug on a bench where you can see the tip end glowing red.

The heat created helps the fuel vaporize and then burn on a cold morning. It needs this until the engine generates enough heat internally to run smoothly. Until the engine is warmed up, and if the air temps are very cold, you are likely to see white or gray smoke to varying degrees frorm the exhaust. Sniffing this smoke will smell of raw fuel, because it is the heavier components of the diesel that did not burn in the cylinder. As soon and the engine warms up some, the smoke goes away.

fireclown said:

3) Do you use an engine warmer?

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I used to, when I had a garage in which I could plug it in. I use an oil pan heater, not made by VW. That was when I lived in Salt Lake City, and there were winter mornings when it made things much easier on the starter.

fireclown said:

4) What fuel additive should I use to pretreat a tank of fuel? Which should I carry with me to save my butt if it gets freaky cold overnight by surprise?...

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I use winterized Redline. They have 2 types available, one winterized and one not. I bought a case of the winterized type, and use it year round.

As zocco said, there is one additive that is possibly the overwhelming favorite. I don't think it is due to empirical testing that has shown any particular quality beyond that found elsewhere. I made my choice due to lackluster lubricity testing results in the Spicer study. Even so, carrying some 911 would be cheap insurance if you like to worry. But the best results will be had by treating before, and not after, a gelling problem happens.

I've only had gelled fuel once, and I think it was because I got inadequately winterized diesel and carried it for at least a couple of months (I've a short commute) and then we had a record cold morning (-27F) that morning. But it is a short commute - I just walked and was a bit late that day.

If you're running from cool to very cold on a trip, the best way to prevent gelling during an overnight cold soak is to have very little to no fuel on arrival, and fill up at a local station. Then drive it around for 10 minutes, and you should be OK.

Power Service in MD

I just went through my second winter in the Severn area: no problems. I do have my TDI in a garage at night, but out in the day, and this last winter was more like Michigan than Maryland for a while. I have been using PS both summer and winter, and in this area the Walmart has the best prices I've found.

jettawreck said:

You probably didn't really "gel up". Most likely you had some water in the fuel/filter and it froze at that temp, or anything much below 32F/0C.
Power Service is supposed to adsorb said water and convert it to a state that will stay liquid and pass harmlessly thru the IP, injectors/nozzles. So even though the fuel may be "blended" or have additives added to be OK for your area and time of season, water in the fuel can disable you. I use some each tankful in below freezing temps-which is about half the year here.

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This is a great example of a sensible answer and a good use of aftermarket additives: to solve a particular problem.

Finding a station that has fresh fuel that is busy enough to avoid water condensation in the large tank may be the best answer.

Aftermarket additives are designed to solve particular problems and are not really proven to prevent anything otherwise, even though their sales pitch makes you believe it cures the common cold. Brand name fuel suppliers generally tailor their additive package to their base fuel and to the seasonal temperatures etc. Mucking around with their formula by adding anything may cause more problems and not solve anything.

TM

Tin Man said:

This is a great example of a sensible answer and a good use of aftermarket additives: to solve a particular problem.

Finding a station that has fresh fuel that is busy enough to avoid water condensation in the large tank may be the best answer.

Aftermarket additives are designed to solve particular problems and are not really proven to prevent anything otherwise, even though their sales pitch makes you believe it cures the common cold. Brand name fuel suppliers generally tailor their additive package to their base fuel and to the seasonal temperatures etc. Mucking around with their formula by adding anything may cause more problems and not solve anything.

TM

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There is also a measure of practicality and a gas-and-go mentality that needs to be taken into consideration. It would be nice if US fuel and every batch of it at all stations was up to VW spec. for our vehicle. Since I get my fuel at a branded busy diesel station, if it was water, (which I am not convinced it was), the issue would appear to be not with the station, and more with particular batch(es) of fuel. When it comes to no-starts in the cold of winter, I believe the best use of additives is preventative rather than correctional. Of course, if you don't use additives, and are experiencing problems and know somehow that water in your fuel/fuel tank is the culprit, the best approach for your vehicle is probably to drain the tank, dispose of the drained diesel, and ideally test the replacement fuel at the pump prior to refilling your tank so you don't encounter the issue again. Oh yeah, and keep plenty of blankets in the trunk

CsTDI said:

There is also a measure of practicality and a gas-and-go mentality that needs to be taken into consideration. It would be nice if US fuel and every batch of it at all stations was up to VW spec. for our vehicle. Since I get my fuel at a branded busy diesel station, if it was water, (which I am not convinced it was), the issue would appear to be not with the station, and more with particular batch(es) of fuel. When it comes to no-starts in the cold of winter, I believe the best use of additives is preventative rather than correctional. Of course, if you don't use additives, and are experiencing problems and know somehow that water in your fuel/fuel tank is the culprit, the best approach for your vehicle is probably to drain the tank, dispose of the drained diesel, and ideally test the replacement fuel at the pump prior to refilling your tank so you don't encounter the issue again. Oh yeah, and keep plenty of blankets in the trunk

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This flies in the face of what most people who use diesel every day with no problems, get water in their tank, and still do fine. Personal experience tells me this is an over-reaction and not based on scientific data or reasoning.

The rumors of diesel fuel being "rot gut" and not up to par are, in my experience after driving diesels for over 350,000 miles, wildly exaggerated.

I've had my CDI show water in the fuel system (idiot light goes on), run out of fuel, and even get into a flood and come out of it without any problems in any of these situations, or extra service needed (other than a new air filter!) and no additives. Now running strong at 176,000 miles as a daily driver.

This doesn't say that water in the system is good, but it is not a new thing for diesels. Fuel systems are a bit more robust nowadays.

Cheers.

TM

Tin Man said:

This flies in the face of what most people who use diesel every day with no problems, get water in their tank, and still do fine. Personal experience tells me this is an over-reaction and not based on scientific data or reasoning.

I am not aware of any official data as to the number of folks who are stranded due to gelling or iceing. Cold weather and fuel is very different than warm weather and fuel. Do you live in a locale with blustery conditions?

The rumors of diesel fuel being "rot gut" and not up to par are, in my experience after driving diesels for over 350,000 miles, wildly exaggerated.

maybe not "rot gut" but sub par? definitely. Our vehicle fuel parts were built for EU specs not lower US specs...

I've had my CDI show water in the fuel system (idiot light goes on), run out of fuel, and even get into a flood and come out of it without any problems in any of these situations, or extra service needed (other than a new air filter!) and no additives. Now running strong at 176,000 miles as a daily driver.

sounds like you take chances! that's fine...but in the blustery cold of winter at God knows what time and where, that is not a hassle or chance, I would take for me or my family. Ever heard of the story of the 4 blind guys that walked out on different parts of the stream fed iced lake? 2 assumed it was fine and indeed didn't encounter a problem at the times that they went out, 1 got a sighted friend to test the ice and did fine. The 4th guy fell through...

Cheers.

TM

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.....

Au contraire, I don't take chances, you might with what you do with taking apart fuel systems to take out water, using aftermarket unproven additives etc.

And you make assumptions without backup. Mercedes and VW make diesels for the world market, not just the European market. Look up specs and see how each market does get different equipment.

If you have kept up over the last few decades, the US gets previous generation diesel tech because of our previously low quality diesel. Now that ULSD is here, we actually sell it on the international market.

Cheers.

TM

Tin Man said:

Au contraire, I don't take chances, you might with what you do with taking apart fuel systems to take out water, using aftermarket unproven additives etc.

And you make assumptions without backup. Mercedes and VW make diesels for the world market, not just the European market. Look up specs and see how each market does get different equipment.

If you have kept up over the last few decades, the US gets previous generation diesel tech because of our previously low quality diesel. Now that ULSD is here, we actually sell it on the international market.

Cheers.

TM

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I don't think so. Bosch says that US fuel is subpar for their fuel parts.

VW recommends a cetane level for the engine that is easily found in Europe but is higher than can what normally be found here

CsTDI said:

I don't think so. Bosch says that US fuel is subpar for their fuel parts.

VW recommends a cetane level for the engine that is easily found in Europe but is higher than can what normally be found here

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Bosch doesn't say that. You need to read up on this. It makes better fuel pumps for the NA market with additional coating on some internal parts.

Cetane, yes. But cetane has little to do with anything except driveability.

TM

Whether the fuel is subpar or not, there is no credible scientific evidence that aftermarket additives make any difference anyway.

TM

Tin Man said:

Bosch doesn't say that. You need to read up on this. It makes better fuel pumps for the NA market with additional coating on some internal parts.

Cetane, yes. But cetane has little to do with anything except driveability.

TM

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Essentially Bosch does say that but I don't have the report at the ready.

ASTM D6079 was established for diesel fuel with a wear scar not to exceed 520 microns. Because this test is not precise there is an acceptable variance from 520 to 570 micron. Since it is more expensive to get the fuel down to the 520 micron wear scar some fuels could be closer to the 570 (within acceptable standard limits). According to the study conducted by BOSCH ,which includes the interest of Stanadyne, Siemens, Denso and Delphi, the new standard for light duty fuel injection equipment is not even borderline. They are saying that the fuel needs to be at least 460 micron and they really want a HFRR 380 micron. In their study they say that for DFIE (diesel fuel injection equipment) fuel lubricity is the most valuable and crucial property and that Common-rail and Rotary pumps require the same level of lubricity. Injectors also benefit from better fuel lubricity. If the fuel does not have adequate lubricity the fuel pumps will wear faster and can end in damage and pump failure.

This was discussed in another thread and it is not as you interpret. It was said for FUTURE diesel tech and the compromise established was anything but black and white.

Please look up other threads on this subject.

TM

I think part of the problem in this country is the climate varies SO much. Lots of the country never freezes while some of it does more months than not. I use additive in the freezing weather as a extra measure to avoid icing and to a lesser degree for insurrance aagainst "gelling/clouding" as the temps can change rapidly here-sometimes before the suppliers can get the proper fuel blends into or use up what in their tanks-or mine.
On the other hand, my relative has a PowerStroke w/270K miles on it before the fuel filter got changed, never used any additive before this winter and drives in some of the coldest temps MN has to offer. For the most part, I think the fuel is pretty (very)good (clean). I did the math on that fuel filter of his and the gallons thru it w/o clogging is hard to imagine. I was very surprised to find the bottom of my tank VERY clean when I took the sending/pickup unit out for modding the check valve. Both of these examples are from small town, not high volume fuel supplies.
I'm not sure if the PS additive does half of what it claims, but I use it when temps go down below freezing and don't worry. Oddly enough though, my own experience w/many logs over the years show i get better MPG in warm weather w/o it. (my timing is "rather" advanced)

Tin Man said:

This was discussed in another thread and it is not as you interpret. It was said for FUTURE diesel tech and the compromise established was anything but black and white.

Please look up other threads on this subject.

TM

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I actually posted the report but can't find the thread right now. Part of the reason for the testing on "current" parts was failed fuel pumps. Agreed it was not black and white (at least to the group that undertook the testing). It was clear to Bosch what the issue was. The conclusion by the group doing the testing was that the testing methodology would need to be redesigned. So, suppose this issue then is in limbo because Bosch says lubricity is at issue and the study designers say after a careful study based on our results err we need to redesign the test. They do not refute what Bosch is saying. Doesn't it make sense in the immediate term to follow the manufacturer's concerns and recommendations? Bosch is raising a red flag and saying there is a problem with US fuel

fireclown said:

I live in Maryland, where we have mild winters, but it does get below 32F, and rarely below 0 F. I have never owned a diesel before, and I have some questions for my fellow mid atlanticers...

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Only buy an engine heater if you want a toasty interior soon after startup on a cold morning. It is not needed to get these new Diesels to start.

Only buy an anti-gel additive for emergencies. Many contain alcohol, which is not good for our cars. And read the directions -- they often call for disassembling the fuel filter, so IMHO they are impractical and 99% unnecessary.

Bottom line: if you're buying a new common-rail Diesel, these are all non-issues, other than the potential problem of buying non-winterized fuel in MD and driving to NH. But that's easily solved by filling up in NH (as I did this past winter, when my car started right up at 4F and ran fine).

-dan

I only use an additive in extreme cold when temps can approach -30C and below only because I drive very long distances on remote highways and want the extra piece of mind that I wont gell up. PetroCan does caution against the use of additive though on their website.

1. Does ultra low sulphur diesel fuel have adequate lubricity like regular sulphur diesel fuel?
   Yes! All Petro-Canada diesel fuels have satisfactory lubricity as required by the National Standard of Canada.
2. Does Petro-Canada diesel fuel contain a lubricity additive?
   All Petro-Canada diesel fuels have suitable lubricity - a diesel fuel property that lubricates moving parts in fuel pumps and fuel injectors to minimize wear and protect current fuel systems. Most of Petro-Canada's diesel fuels have good natural lubricity (even "ultra low sulphur" diesel fuels), especially during the spring, summer and early fall.
   Lighter, low cloud point, winter diesel fuels contain a lubricity additive in keeping with the requirements of the National Standard of Canada for Automotive Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel. Petro-Canada recommends that customers avoid routinely adding additional lubricity additive to fuels as high dose rates of some lubricity additives have been found to cause problems such as sticking of plungers, metering valves or fuel injector racks.
   

I live in coastal central NJ and commute to Phila daily. I use white PowerService every tank when forecasted or actual temps dip into the 20sF. Fortunately no fuel gelling related issues in 450k miles.

fossill said:

I only use an additive in extreme cold when temps can approach -30C and below only because I drive very long distances on remote highways and want the extra piece of mind that I wont gell up. PetroCan does caution against the use of additive though on their website.

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I'm curious, what is the min spec in regards to lubricity for diesel in Canada?