New Dieselgate Forum

Dimentionaldame said:

I have also been plagued with costly repairs on my 2010 Jetta diesel. The gas mileage was fantastic but the repairs outweighed the savings. I do have to admit I only replaced the brake pads once and the muffler is original equipment at 200.000 miles. This car was over engineered as the electronic parts and all the flaps (exhaust manifold) within the system are quirky and prone to repair. I will defiantly be doing the buyback and crossing over to a Honda Accord for gas mileage and longevity. Sorry VW for breaking our long love affair

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After the buyback for me

Camry, Civic, Accord, RAV4, ~~ even a VW Golf (gasser) are in the running

PRICE will be 90% 0f the final determination

OlyJetta said:

Okay, I registered for the buyback. But I'm disappointed that the trade-in value, not the fair market value is being used. I think the consumer is yet again getting the short end of the stick.

My 2010 Sportwagen has a higher fair market value in August of 2016 than a trade-in value in September of 2015.

Let's say, for sake of example that there isn't an emissions scandal;

I trade my TDI in at a dealer. They give me equivalent trade-in value. They then sell the car at fair market value. The dealer gains.

Sure, we are also getting additional funds for our troubles, but I had not planned on spending time, energy and money finding something that is compUYarable to my TDI SW, which is not possible.

I went ahead and sent a letter to the U.S. Assistant Attorney General's office with my complaint regarding the valuation of our cars.

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You're not required to spend time, money, or energy. You don't have to do a single thing. VW has already given you two free prepaid credit cards and will give you at least $5100 and let you keep your car.

All this because your car allegedly doesn't meet the standards of the corrupt and power hungry EPA.

The attorney general's office will snicker before throwing your letter in a trash can.

I and many others agree with OlyJetta that they should have used something other than trade in value. They court asked for feedback. Yes, it may well end up in the trash, but I also sent my objections to the attorney general.

So today I plugged in my results for my car onto the vw settlement calculator and it is telling me my cars clean NADA trade value is only $14,975.

For the record I have a 2012 jetta sportwagen with currently 71,774 miles on it. I have the panoramic roof, DSG, no navigation and I am located in Arizona.

Frustrated and dismayed I contacted the VW toll free number to inquire. Just so everyone knows the name of this company you are calling is called Matrix and is hired by VW to manage customer support for the settlement.

The first person I spoke with name was John and he told me that the numbers based on the online computer are correct. I told him I disagree and the math doesn't add up. Confident in himself that I was somehow wrong, John set out to walk me through the process manually to show why my car was worth so little.

He directed me to the VW court settlement website and had me download attachment 1A. We then looked up my cars value according to this document.

For my year and model it shows $20,747 as the buyback value, add sunroof for an additional $630, bringing the total to $21,377. This we both agreed upon as the buy back value of the car according to VW court settlement document 1A.

We then checked with VW court settlement document 2B to check for mileage adjustments (mileage is calculated in our favor guys, not the other way around).

We took the number of months since Sept 2015 (currently 11), times 1042 which equals 11,462 miles. We then subtracted that from our current mileage to obtain our adjustment. Following the documents instructions it shows for my vehicle I subtract $720, leaving me with a total of $20,657 as the actual buy back amount. Upon further reading under step #6, we see that if the modification amount is less than $5,100 then there is further instructions at the bottom of attachment 2B. However, in my case the actual modification amount was $5,947 + $105 for the sunroof (go back to attachment 1A to look this figure up) for a grand total of $6,052. Then I subtract $120 for mileage adjustments as required per step #5 on attachment 2B and we arrived at $5,932 as the actual modification amount I would receive if I decided to keep the vehicle. This number is not less than $5,100 as per step #5 so the final amount if I decided to let VW buy back the vehicle will be $24,216 ($20,657 + restitution or 10%($2,065) + $1,496.365), not in fact $14,975 as per the website.

John told me my math was correct, however he was not going by the booklet mailed to me from VW or the court settlement filings as he stated he was in receipt of internal emails directing him to make several subtractions that in fact lower the value of the vehicle significantly. In the end John advised me the court settlement documents and the booklet I received are the authority but he is instructed to otherwise and he just has to follow his instructions.

I then called back and spoke to a woman named Janine (spelling), who told me she has never received any such emails or instructions and more or less the information i received in the mail is final even though the judge can still modify it, it seems unlikely. She stated she has received several angry callers about the same issue I was calling in about and the VW website was in fact managed by VW and not Matrix. The callers complained the website figures did not seem to track the information furnished in the book or with the FTC filings. She advised me to make a complaint to the court.


Does this help anyone and has anyone else discovered this issue? I apologize i did not read all the threads so this may have already been brought up..

madcowintucson said:

<snip>


Does this help anyone and has anyone else discovered this issue? I apologize i did not read all the threads so this may have already been brought up..

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I don't know what I could add; it sounds like you've already discovered the answer to the question. The published court settlement documents will rule, so your car will receive the buyback amount in those tables. Sounds like the website you used is screwed up. Murphy's Law always prevails.
As far as what you experienced when you call, telephone drones are just following the script in front of them. Anything that deviates from that is only going to produce frustration on both ends of the line.

Two Different Buyback Quotes

I filled out the online form twice and got two different price quotes- on the same vin! I was not able to log back in with the email and Password that I wrote down when I first registered. It then dawned on me that I received no confirmation email that I did register the first time, so I registered again. The first quote was $19,600 for my 2012 TDI Sportwagen with 42k. The second was almost $22,000. It appears that the online quotes are somewhat arbitrary?

It turns out that the Username I created is what's required to log in as opposed to the email address. I did get a confirmation email the second time. I've chosen the fix plus $6,000 or so instead of the buyback.

madcowintucson said:

So today I plugged in my results for my car onto the vw settlement calculator and it is telling me my cars clean NADA trade value is only $14,975.

For the record I have a 2012 jetta sportwagen with currently 71,774 miles on it. I have the panoramic roof, DSG, no navigation and I am located in Arizona.



He directed me to the VW court settlement website and had me download attachment 1A. We then looked up my cars value according to this document.

For my year and model it shows $20,747 as the buyback value, add sunroof for an additional $630, bringing the total to $21,377. This we both agreed upon as the buy back value of the car according to VW court settlement document 1A.

We then checked with VW court settlement document 2B to check for mileage adjustments (mileage is calculated in our favor guys, not the other way around).

We took the number of months since Sept 2015 (currently 11), times 1042 which equals 11,462 miles. We then subtracted that from our current mileage to obtain our adjustment. Following the documents instructions it shows for my vehicle I subtract $720, leaving me with a total of $20,657 as the actual buy back amount. Upon further reading under step #6, we see that if the modification amount is less than $5,100 then there is further instructions at the bottom of attachment 2B. However, in my case the actual modification amount was $5,947 + $105 for the sunroof (go back to attachment 1A to look this figure up) for a grand total of $6,052. Then I subtract $120 for mileage adjustments as required per step #5 on attachment 2B and we arrived at $5,932 as the actual modification amount I would receive if I decided to keep the vehicle. This number is not less than $5,100 as per step #5 so the final amount if I decided to let VW buy back the vehicle will be $24,216 ($20,657 + restitution or 10%($2,065) + $1,496.365), not in fact $14,975 as per the website.


Does this help anyone and has anyone else discovered this issue? I apologize i did not read all the threads so this may have already been brought up..

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What is the buyback figure on the VW site? It should be in the $20-21K range. What website is telling it's $14975? If you accidentally entered a purchase date after Sep 15, it would still be around $18K. Oh, and you don't add the restitution amount to the figure in 1A. It's already included. And do you have the Sep15 NADA clean trade value for your car to refute what you are being given?

Airpizz6 said:

What is the buyback figure on the VW site? It should be in the $20-21K range. What website is telling it's $14975? If you accidentally entered a purchase date after Sep 15, it would still be around $18K. Oh, and you don't add the restitution amount to the figure in 1A. It's already included. And do you have the Sep15 NADA clean trade value for your car to refute what you are being given?

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The buy back amount is what I posted and the site is the vw settlement site where you type in your vehicle information. And before or after Sept 18 only changes the restitution amount. All court documents clearly tell you to add the buyback amount plus in addition the restitution amount. They even put the word plus in bold and underline it and state the restitution is in addition to, not included in, the buy back amount.

The Nada clean trade value is what I posted... Jesus Christ not to be a d*** but can't you read??? Why aren't you reading what I typed and asking me questions when I posted the answers right there... you even quoted me man:/

The documents DO NOT say to add the restitution figure to the buyback number. You adjust the NADA figure for options and mileage. And use the result to calculate the restitution figure. And add it to the adjusted NADA figure. The result is the buyback figure. Of course anyone as ignorant and hostile and hostile as you can't handle something a first grader could understand. Too long in the Arizona sun I guess.

Airpizz6 said:

The documents DO NOT say to add the restitution figure to the buyback number. You adjust the NADA figure for options and mileage (buyback amount). And use the result (buyback amount) to calculate the restitution figure. And add it (restitution amount) to the adjusted NADA figure (buyback amount). The result is the buyback figure (payment amount). Of course anyone as ignorant and hostile and hostile as you can't handle something a first grader could understand. Too long in the Arizona sun I guess.

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Do you comprehend what you are saying? Oh by the way my friends autistic 6 year old kid is telling me what to type so you can follow along and we have taken the liberty to adjust your post so hopefully you will have one of those "DOH" moments=]

OK, since everyone seems very confused by my post, the website that everyone has suggested is wrong is https://claims.vwgoa.com.

The court documents as I have already outlined unequivocally state YOU AS THE ELIGIBLE OWNER COMBINE THE BUYBACK AMOUNT PLUS THE RESTITUTION AMOUNT. Anyone who posts here and claims otherwise is just trolling for trouble. This information is found on pages 1 and 2 of the official DIESEL EMISSIONS SETTLEMENTS booklet that YOU, as an eligible party, would have received in the mail. If you do not have this booklet then you should not even be commenting in here because you do not own an eligible vehicle.

This is not up for debate. My issue is the VW website as mentioned above not putting forth accurate numbers on the vehicles buyback value pursuant to the stipulations in this matter.

On a side note I spoke to an attorney named Wendy Behan today. She is listed as one of the law firms you can make inquiries to. This woman was a total C*NT. Essentially she told me there is a separate buyback amount for anyone who purchased one of the affected vehicles AFTER September 18, 2015. She tried to convince me that the website as listed above was correct and that any tdi purchased after that date was already devalued by NADA. For example, if before September 18, 2015 my car was valued at $16,000, then after the scandal broke it was automatically devalued to $8,000 by NADA.

Of course I told her this is nonsense as these cars have not been devalued by the NADA nor KBB. Just go to the websites and you will see they are still valued at the same prices before the scandal was announced. I paid full KBB value for my car in March of this year, but according to this woman it would have been devalued at the time of purchase.

What this lawyer then stated was that anyone who purchased an affected vehicle after September 18, 2015 did so with the strict intentions to hoard said vehicles to profiteer off the scandal. She told me it was going to be her job to make sure neither me nor anyone else profits twice from this scandal. She told me VW is using buyback tables, to be kept secrete from the public, and these tables devalue any vehicles purchased after September 18, 2015 from the "frozen" buyback amounts listed on the court website, so that those owners cannot profit twice. So if I profited from the devaluation when I bought the vehicle, I shall not profit again from the buyback.

Of course no where in any court records or agreements or stipulations does this language exist. Of course I brought this to her attention. She claims that proof is offered on page 25 of the booklet, which states in paragraph 4:

"These tables assume that you still owned your car when the emissions accusations became public on September 18, 2015 and that you still own it. If you no longer have your car or if you purchased it after September 18, 2015, then you will be offered a lesser amount, assuming you qualify for the settlement" She states this is the "authority" VW is using to secretly devalue my vehicle buyback amount (including milage and options and region) from $20,657 to $14,751.

So lets say that it is all true, for example, my September 18, 2015 NADA value of my car is $20,657 (adjusted for mileage and options and region per attachment 1A). If I owned the vehicle prior to September 18, 2015, I automatically get that money PLUS restitution. The restitution payment is 20% PLUS $2,986.73.

20% of $20,657 = $4,131.40 (for all you math challenged) PLUS $2,986.73 PLUS $20,657 = $27,775.13. This would be the total amount received as payment if I owned the vehicle prior to September 18, 2015 and opted to let VW buy it back today.

Now lets go look on page 26 of the booklet as this is where my year and model are listed...It says the range of payments (this would be the amount to include both the buyback amount and the restitution amount if VW and the lawyer have their way) are between $19,907 and $22,097.

Clearly if these range of payments include (as the lawyer and VW insist) both the buyback amount and the restitution, something is significantly wrong, $27,775.13 vs. $19,907-$22,097.

Its a good thing I recorded that phone call! Now all the sudden VW does not know how to interpret its own stipulations and will be claiming semantics and interpretation to work against us and cheat us out of the agreed settlement. Buy the way this also applies if you intend to keep your vehicle. I was offered $2998.00 to keep it and just over $17,000 to let VW buy it back


Folks I think we are in for a major screw job here...YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Wow, thanks for warning us.

I thought VW had stepped up and agreed to do the right thing. I've never seen another major automobile corporation step up and agree to spend probably $50B.

GM and Chrysler stepped up with both hands out for an equivalent amount or more from taxpayers.

I'll be watching for an evil agent of VW hiding behind every diesel fuel pump when I fuel up again.

***Update***

Spent two hours on the phone with another attorney who was super nice and we went through all the paperwork...

So without saying it anywhere we could find VW claims the September 18, 2015 NADA value for my car with region, options and mileage is the $14,700.00. There is absolutely no reference to these numbers or how they are calculated in any court documents and they are not using attachment 1A. So he is stumped and going to find out and get back to me next week.

I just assumed the car was worth more than that on that date because that is what the court documents indicated. The value of the car per NADA should be exactly the same whether you owned the car prior or bought the car after that date. The only difference is the restitution amount. The attorney suggested the numbers on attachment 1A in the buyback table included the restitution. So for example:

$14,700 +20%+ $2986 = none of the numbers match up.

We could not reverse engineer how vw arrived at $14,700 as the buy back value because we could not get that number before or after region, options and mileage for either before or after September 18, 2015.

If we plug in $14,700 as the NADA clean trade value with or without mileage adjustments, region and mileage, we could never reach the fixed number as found in attachment 1A. That's a fixed dollar amount, not a range of dollar amounts. The only number that can possibly be fixed is the September 18, 2015 nada clean trade value. Everything after than is variable and thus gives us a range.

The only thing missing here is the truth about the NADA numbers. Of course a quick call to NADA and they are told not to disclose their numbers and they told me I have to go look for a September 2015 book.

Not to mention why does attachment 1A tell me to find my mileage adjustment in attachment 2B or is it 2B says to find my clean trade value in 1A. Either way one refers to the other. So in my case really they are saying my cars September 2015 NADA clean trade value before region, options and mileage is:


$14,700 - $630 (region, options) + $720 (added back for mileage) = $14,790.

This number sounds about right. But I want to know what's the number for a 2012 jetta sportwagen with sunroof in the SW region with 61,000 mikes on it???

If it's $14,790 then so be it. The only issue I have is this number does not match up or even come close to any court documents that the attorney nor I could find. In fact he sort of wanted to say we can not go by The FTC documents at all. If the booklet mailed to me is correct and he is correct then the tables in the back of the book will give us, just like they suggest, the total amount of the buyback including restitution, but only for those who had their car before September 18.

So for me if I had the car before September 18 it would look like this: $14,790 + $630 - $720 +20% + $2986 = $20,626 and if I bought it after September 18, $17,663.

Do you all think these are fair numbers? I guess as in fair restitution really. I paid just under Kelly blue book value for mine, it was not devalued at all except for a minor accident.

The restitution is supposed to compensate us for the devaluation of the vehicle. Why is it fair that just because we bought it after Sept 18 we are docked 10% and $1,493??

Why is it fair someone who sold their car prior to the scandal gets any money at all if their car was not sold for a loss because of the scandal?? For that matter why is it fair someone who sold their their car after the news of the scandal broke should get restitution if the car was not sold for a loss??

The sole purpose of paying the restitution as I read it is because of the alleged devaluation of the vehicle...except problem is, as of today, they have not devalued as a result of this scandal.

To be completely honest and fair, if there is no devaluation as the result of this scandal then there should be no restitution at all. If they guy who sold this car to me after the scandal took a loss as a result, then he should get restitution. If I sell the car after the scandal and and take a loss because of the scandal then I should get restitution. If, one day, I can no longer register the vehicle or get an exemption because of the emissions cheat and am forced to get rid of the vehicle... then I should get restitution. I won't turn down $3,000 cash for restitution that I don't deserve as of yet. But If I have to get rid of my car down the road because of this I am going to want a lot more than $3,000 restitution!!!

I think this settlement moved to fast through the court. As I see it VW still profits as a result. They are buying back these cars for much less than what was paid for these cars and each person ends up with less. I think VW should have to buy back all the vehicles at what they were paid for and essentially give all that money back to the current owners, plus fines and "enviormental" cleanup. Right now it's not VW that's eating the loss it's all of us because we also got the "use" out of the vehicle.

I think if you bought your car for houshold use, not business use and are the original owner, then you should get 100% of your money back and if you decide to keep your car and in the future can't get it registered and have to get rid if it as a result then you should get 100% of your money back and either way be paid restitution by Volkswagen for and losses such as taxes paid out or any governmental fees etc. for however long you have owned your vehicle. I think if you just bought one used as I did, for household use, you should get the full restitution of 20% + $2986 unless you bought it for a devalued rate and the seller took a loss then it should be variable based on what you bought it at.

The real problem here is NADA never devalued the cars after the scandal broke. If they did then it's possible no one would have sold theirs after for a loss and those that did could ask for restitution and those who made off buying them for less already got their restitution up front so to speak. Believe me I would have been happier to buy this car at half KBB because of the scandae and it's subsequent devaulation and not get any restitution! We could have eliminated one more problem if NADA and KBB devalued the vehicles up front as they should have. I bet all the cars would have immediately come off the market except in rare and isolated occurrences where someone sold at a devauled price or someone bought and overpaid on a devauled car. NADA should be fined!

If I keep my car or turn it in nothing less than 20% NADA and $2986 is fair and just compensation and because I bought it after September 18 has nothing to do with anything.

Uhhhhhh - what is your point? Your book above says it is overly generous because the value of our cars did not decline and it's not fair because you want more.

I don't have a sense of entitlement so I'm pleased with the unexpected and, in my opinion, unearned and unnecessary windfall.

I paid an overly generous $17k for my car about four years ago because it was advertised by a private seller teacher in OK, had clean car fax, and was exactly what I wanted color and all. I've put more than 50k miles on it with only routine service and a failed window operator and a failed door lock. It's still a great car and trustworthy. I drove it to Michigan for my annual visit to the Soo in June and trust it to drive across country tomorrow.

VW is offering to pay me $14,300 for it now with 112k miles. That's a lot more than I could get if I advertised it on craigslist and more than twice what a dealer would allow on a trade.

I'm happy. NO one is screwing me.

I do not understand why everyone is talking so much about numbers. All we have seen, so far, is a proposed settlement. Every number we are talking about could change when the final settlement details are announced. They could be higher or lower, we just don't know. Until October 15th has arrived, any discussion about numbers is premature and very likely wrong. Even the numbers you get from the VW settlement website are only estimates (predictions) of what the final numbers will be. Perhaps it is time to relax a bit.

Feel free to keep talking about numbers if it makes you any happier, just keep in mind that all of these details are still subject to change. Just like before, we are still just wasting time until we learn the final settlement details. Getting worked up about numbers now is doing nothing but allowing VW (and a bunch of lawyers) to add stress to your life. Do we really need more stress in our lives? I don't.

Have Fun!

Don

HBarlow said:

Uhhhhhh - what is your point?

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Mr Barlow, thanks for the Cliffnotes version of the thesis above. Why use 100 words when 10000 will do? I don't want to waste ten minutes reading a post that says nothing.

Airpizz6 said:

Mr Barlow, thanks for the Cliffnotes version of the thesis above. Why use 100 words when 10000 will do? I don't want to waste ten minutes reading a post that says nothing.

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You made the smart decision. I waded through it looking for the message and ended up confused.

HBarlow said:

You're not required to spend time, money, or energy. You don't have to do a single thing. VW has already given you two free prepaid credit cards and will give you at least $5100 and let you keep your car.

All this because your car allegedly doesn't meet the standards of the corrupt and power hungry EPA.

The attorney general's office will snicker before throwing your letter in a trash can.

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What? What does the EPA have to do with this! VW cheated and Lied to the EPA and consumers about the emissions on the TDI. VW had the choice to meet the requirements but they did not.

pcjr said:

What? What does the EPA have to do with this! VW cheated and Lied to the EPA and consumers about the emissions on the TDI. VW had the choice to meet the requirements but they did not.

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Just follow the lead sheep. You'll be okay as long as you don't stray from the flock.

Airpizz6 said:

Hey, lookie there. That AZ dude just posted a comment of only 15 lines. Didn't think he could do it. I'm really really really impressed. When he gets down to an intelligent succinct 50 word post, I might actually read it. In the meantime...

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I tried to read his latest. It wasn't coherent. All I could determine from his rant is he was angry and thinks everyone else is stupid, dumb, or both.

There may have been some drug or alcohol impairment.

At end of me lease on touareg,give back,or buy?

Folks,
I'm not good at posting.
I have 10 days to either turn it in or buy it.
If it's mine do I become part of the class,or do I get nothing?
Anyone know?

Has anything been released on the V6 engines yet? If not, then your guess is as good as mine.

Just a quick question. So when is the buyback starting? I am looking at a brand new geaser Golf Wagon. BTW I saw a 2015 brand new TDI advertised by dealer on autotrader. Is that legal?

k^2 said:

Just a quick question. So when is the buyback starting? I am looking at a brand new geaser Golf Wagon. BTW I saw a 2015 brand new TDI advertised by dealer on autotrader. Is that legal?

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Brand new? not legal

BB starts (about) Nov 01 ~~ with the final approval of the Judge etc.

BTW, I too am looking at a Golf gasser ~~ price and availability is the issue.

k^2 said:

Just a quick question. So when is the buyback starting? I am looking at a brand new geaser Golf Wagon. BTW I saw a 2015 brand new TDI advertised by dealer on autotrader. Is that legal?

Click to expand...

My first answer isn't one. You asked two quick questions, not "a" quick question, and one is what you get.

The buyback will theoretically start in November. I say "theoretically" because the court hearing that will finalize the buyback process and allow it to proceed isn't until October (18th, maybe?).
Good thing you only got one answer, since not being an attorney, I have no idea whether it's legal.....

So....I am picking up a BMW 335d this weekend and parking the VW until the buy back.

Next stop - a visit to BPC in Raleigh for a custom stage II tune DP's, and DPF/SCR delete.

Thank you VW for making this possible...

mike2937 said:

Folks,
I'm not good at posting.
I have 10 days to either turn it in or buy it.
If it's mine do I become part of the class,or do I get nothing?
Anyone know?

Click to expand...

I have 8 months left on my lease. I believe you get the lessee money no matter what, but I am sick of reading documents.

After the latest news story that Bosch/VW knew planned this out together with the CEO, in email a decade ago, I could see them delay the settlement longer (so we have to keep making payments).

Complete garbage.

ccbsecu said:

So....I am picking up a BMW 335d this weekend and parking the VW until the buy back.

Next stop - a visit to BPC in Raleigh for a custom stage II tune DP's, and DPF/SCR delete.

Thank you VW for making this possible...

Click to expand...

I got the pleasure to have a 335d for a day (wife's loaner). The torque is life changing.

2010 Cup Edition decision

New to forum and would like some help deciding what to do in the few days remaining to make a decision. I put it off as long as I can. I LOVE my 2010 Cup Edition Jetta, now with 78000 mi on it -- Best car I've ever, ever had. But what do I do now? I have to make a decision in a few days. I paid more for it up front because of the "Cup Edition" and there is not much premium in the buyback for the Cup Edition. I've been solicited by a batch of lawyers to "opt out" of the settlement and let them get more for my wonderful car. Another Cup owner said he's keeping his as by the time the buybacks are done it will be one of the rarest modern cars around. Buyback, keep it and take 7K, let a lawyer get more??????? I just don't know

srein1 said:

New to forum and would like some help deciding what to do in the few days remaining to make a decision. I put it off as long as I can. I LOVE my 2010 Cup Edition Jetta, now with 78000 mi on it -- Best car I've ever, ever had. But what do I do now? I have to make a decision in a few days. I paid more for it up front because of the "Cup Edition" and there is not much premium in the buyback for the Cup Edition. I've been solicited by a batch of lawyers to "opt out" of the settlement and let them get more for my wonderful car. Another Cup owner said he's keeping his as by the time the buybacks are done it will be one of the rarest modern cars around. Buyback, keep it and take 7K, let a lawyer get more??????? I just don't know

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You have more than days to make your decision -- unless you want to OPT-OUT

If you go that way, IMO --- you are talking years for any settlement.