TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

It does look pretty good cept maybe the Fe

You need a soot test.

That was the only thing that really concerned me. I'll have to ask them next time why the didn't include the soot test.

It might explain your Fe level - the Pento Syn is a GRP III and a tad thicker which will help to lower that number a bit.

mkinner said:

Here is my first analysis on my 05 jetta PD w/ 49500 miles on engine, 9200 on the Amsoil European car formula:
(snip)
Iron: 74

This was the only oil change that i ran Amsoil European in it and the test came back better than i thought!

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Unfortunately I think this is a typical result from Amsoil AFL -- it's just not as good as some other 505.01-rated oils, and not as good as the API-rated Amsoil DEO.

AFL was the same as Motul in my car - I think its fuel and the driver. My first 507 is right in line with AFL. I think DEO is a better oil and I think Amsoil knows this but they will not support the use in a PD. Amsoil was so worried about building a 505.01 in line with VW that they sacrificed themselves. If they were not going to subject it for testing then they should have built us a robust oil that would not cause our emissions systems harm. I have now seen DEO rival Delvac in a PD. GMark and I are going to start a thread and post PD's using Delvac 1 - Schaeffers S9000 and Amsoil DEO. All three are doing well. The users wish to remain anon so they send us their UOA's complete with name and address. We have complete historys of the cars.I'm searching for others - I wold like to find a Rotella user, a Valvoline. Any one using a CI? oil or a non VAG approved 505.01. We can all follow these cars and learn allot.

Is it me or have i been seeing MANY MANY PD's producing 10ppm of iron every 1,000 miles? Including mine, 155ppm at 15k.

Yes he is a 8 ppm Fe right at the top of the safe zone - but he only paid 5.50 a quart not 11.50.

wjdell said:

AFL was the same as Motul in my car - I think its fuel and the driver.

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WJ, your driving conditions are not real world for most people. Yours is the only good AFL UOA that we have seen.

There are not that many AFL UOA's and the ones who did poorly did poorly with any 505.01 they used. My driving conditions are pretty good but they are real world. Also there are guys that have better conditions go over to the mileage contest - donner - and several others are posting 46+ mpg with DSG's. My AFL is good because my motor was in good condition and clean when it was used. If we go head to head with 506.01 AFL does better overall, albeit their are a couple of 506.01's that scored very high. I think soot is a big issue for the PD and I also think its a big issue to 500 series oils. Seems to me the HSD oils are not dealing with soot as well as the Truck oils and thats were we have the Europeans beat our oils have had to deal with inferior fuels and they do better.

We need more data but I understand your point.

wjdell said:

My AFL is good because my motor was in good condition and clean when it was used.

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WJ, that is an understatement. You and SUNRG probably could run butter in your crankcase and have a UOA.

I would be surprised if your car doesn't make to 500K.

If anybody can give a good show for SLX III I should be able to. But I just saw a PD doing poorly turn it around in one OCI with DEO. From 10 ppm per K to 1.3 ppm per K. We hope to repeat this several times.

wjdell said:

There are not that many AFL UOA's and the ones who did poorly did poorly with any 505.01 they used.

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?????

try to look at the following data objectively: 2 UOAs, same engine, same fuel sources, identical soot levels. we would expect Fe wear to be higher in the first UOA since the engine was still wearing in (oil in service from 30-41k ODO) but Fe wear was 139% higher for the oil in service from 60-70k ODO. could this Fe spike be unrelated to the oil - absolutely!

the ELF 5w40 was in service from 30-41k ODO. the UOA is on this report - 76ppm Fe @ 11336 miles for an Fe wear rate of 6.7. the engine was still young then so those numbers are OK especially considering the 2.2% soot!

the next UOA was AFL which was in service from ~51-60k ODO. 99ppm Fe @ 9692 miles for an Fe wear rate of 10.2. soot was still elevated but slightly lower at 1.7%. 10.2 is a relatively high Fe wear rate for oil in service for less than 10k from 51-60k ODO.

this UOA is AFL in service from 60-70k ODO. 163ppm Fe @ 10156 miles for an Fe wear rate of 16.0. soot is back up to 2.2%. your engine is Fe wear rate is now 139% higher than during its 30-41k OCI and the soot concentration is the same.

​

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Sure it could he shows a inital high reading and then it just goes higher - It shows a 10k OCI is not for everyone - ask VF Chicgao.

He had issues and they may have been addressed. What about the guy who just posted a ELF CRV not good and a switch to DID and it was worse, I will try to locate. He too was on a downward trend. My AFL is better than my SLX III, does it mean its better - NO. I just started looking at every UOA, except the ones no longer available posted links. It clearly shows no relation to oil type. 50% are fair to good and 50% are poor to very poor. Elf Motul AFL there was no correlation to oil type.

I do not care if its Elf - Pento - Motul - Castrol - Lubro Moly - Amsoil - Schaeffers - if you get bad readings its not the oil. The present condition of the engine and its tune, that includes break in and the OC interval which sets up the wear trend. The fuel source and the driver are what decides good or bad. Is one oil a little better than another, I am sure. That said which one is best, I think it may be Pento as I have not seen as many bad UOA's but of course less of them. I just got a Pento TS UOA that was 3.92 ppm Fe on a 5600 mile OC. The three previous were AFL and had the AFL done poorly then the UOA for Pento TS would not have been a low 22 ppm Fe. You know this as well as I cause the inheritance would have given a much higher reading.
The oils are consistant and the fuel, engine and driver are the varibles.

I want to add to this that temperature fuel sensors may be playing a big role in the vastly different UOA's were the performance seems poor. The only common factor and this is not without exception is the soot level. When we get a fair UOA with a very high soot level so often we see the next UOA as very poor, much higher than expected.

Wanna see a nasty UOA? Here's my just purchased 2004 Jetta PD, 117,500 miles. Unknown mileage on this oil change.

Fe 185 (flagged by analyser)
Cr 6
Ni 3
Al 18
Cu 13
Pb 6
Sn 1
Si 14
Na 163 (flagged by analyser)
K 9
Mo 77
B 43
Mg 68
Ca 2616
P 872
Zn 1079

Viscosity @ 100C = 10.1
Fuel: A
Glycol: N
Water: <0.1%

Oxidation: 20
Nitration: 13
Soot: 0.3%

Makes me think this baby is about to blow! However, oxidation and nitration are pretty high, so this is most likely a very long OCI. I don't know the type of oil used, but I was told that the previous owners had been using the dealer in town, and I hear they use Castrol SLX, which is a 5-30 I guess. So that might could explain it.

I just finished changing the timing belt. I pulled the valve cover and took cam pics. They're showing wear, I'll post in a new thread sometime soon. The silicon and sodium in this test make me think there was an air filtration issue. I did notice alot of sand/dirt/dust in the airbox and all around the engine. The car was probably driven on a dirt road alot.

I changed out this oil last week, and put in Mobil 1 TDT. I'm not buying in to the 505.1/506.1/507 stuff just yet. I have a feeling Delvac is the way to go. I'll pull a sample for analysis in a few weeks.

You may have a coolant leak get checked now !

With a moly count of 77 and B 43 I it could be SLX - but without knowing the miles its hard to tell just how bad this is. What if its been in there for 20k, it may not be as bad as you think. If you are sure the cam has siffered then it will need repaired.

If you think there is no coolant leak and they seem to think so by your UOA - then change this oil out as a flush. Put the new oil in and run it for 200 miles and then take a sample. You can trust Delvac will not harm your PD that we are pretty sure of.

No its not SLX - looks more like a 505.00

It could be a Mobil 1 5w30, it has the right amount of molybdenum, except it has way too much calcium.

Looka the sodium but no patassium - so it probably is not a coolant leak as they state

He had a intake leak and followed people spraying salt off their tires.

wjdell said:

Looka the sodium but no patassium - so it probably is not a coolant leak as they state

He had a intake leak and followed people spraying salt off their tires.

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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too. The airbox was full of sand too (hence the silicon).

You have learned a valuble lesson - make sure your air box is sealed tightly - use a sealant I found a small leak in mine at 3k. The fuel is also super critical. Keep the oil clean and those three factors are the secret to long engine life..

VOA Mobil 1 ESP 5W-30

VOA from Blackstone Labs.
I'm planning to run this for the next change on my 2006 Golf PD. The starting TBN is a little low (consequence of low SAPS, I suppose), so I'll have to keep an eye on that if the next OCI involves a lot of short trips.
---
Rich

Thank you for the Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 VOA. It at least looks better than 505.01 albeit the 505.01 has a bit more Ca and Zn. This looks very similar to SLX I believe, both different than LLX which has no Mo and no B.

rhi said:

VOA from Blackstone Labs.
(snip)
Mo 80

B 214
Ca 1062
Mg 7
P 764
Zn 908
-------------------------
SUS @ 210F 65.1
cSt @ 100C 11.63
Flashpt F 485
Insol % 0
TBN 5.1

I'm planning to run this for the next change on my 2006 Golf PD. The starting TBN is a little low (consequence of low SAPS, I suppose), so I'll have to keep an eye on that if the next OCI involves a lot of short trips.

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Very high flashpoint, viscosity toward the high end for a 30-weight oil. Yes, low starting TBN but DB says this isn't important. We'll find out whether that is true.

2001 Jetta

Tests by OAI.
Some history on the car: I purchased it in Jan. 2006 from the original owner with 81k miles. It was serviced at the dealer (I have the records). There was a quart of the Castrol with the 505.00 label on it in the trunk when I bought it. Despite the car being well maintained, there were some problems with it, namely a sticky VNT actuator and a clogged intake.

It was stock until 85k miles, when it was bumped to RCII. I cleaned the intake and turbo and replaced the VNT actuator at about the same time. (These changes were made about halfway through the life of the Castrol.) I have an oil temp gauge and wait to get my foot into it until the oil is hot, in the hopes of prolonging the engine's (and turbo's) life.

I also started running B99 in May '06 at about 85k miles. From about Nov. - Mar, I run B50 to avoid gelling. The first tank of ULSD went in during Feb. of this year at about 95k miles.

How do these numbers look?

EDIT: The Castrol had 10k on it for the first UOA.

looks like you went from the frying pan into the fire - ouch - you have issues

change that boutique oil for some 507 - SLX III - run for 3 to 5 k and change it again test at 5k of the second fill of 507 - save your lunch money cause your cam is more than likely going to file for early retirement.

Thats a 2001 go for some real oil - Amsoil DEO - Mobil TDT or Delvac ESP - Schaeffers S9000 is ver affordable. SHell Rotella T. That is just a few of the dozen or more excellent oils your 2001 can use.

XJCoupe - basically the syntec oil was in bad shape by 10k. it's viscosity had become very low for a 5w-40 (10.2 = lower end of the 30 weight range), it was no longer protecting the engine and wear metal concentrations had become high.

if it were my new-to-me TDI, the oil change after draining the severly compromised castrol syntec would have been a super short cleansing OCI - maybe 100 miles.

basically, when oil has degraded as much as the Castrol had the 1+ liter of it that cannot be drained or extracted during and oil change immediately compromises the performance of the next oil fill. this could be the only issue and additional UOA testing should be able to help you determine whether this is an oil or mechanical problem.

if this were my beloved TDI, here's what i would do.

1. i would change the oil and filter immediately
2. drive 50 miles and change the oil and filter again
3. drive 20 miles and extract a baseline oil sample, send it to the lab and post the results to this thread
4. drive 5000 miles, extract an oil sample, send it to the lab and post the results to this thread

by comparing the baseline UOA result (mile 20 UOA) with the 5020 mile UOA result we will be able to clearly determine rates at which your engine is generating wear metals.

when changing the oil, if possible, i would both drain from the drain plug and use an oil extractor to extract oil from the oil filter housing and the plumbing and oil cooler beneath the oil filter housing.

if performance and / or fuel economy are at below normal levels, resolving the issues may positively impact your future UOA results and engine longeity.

currently, IMHO you don't have enough data to know whether there's anything wrong mechanincally or if the dealer has been using bulk 5w-30 syntec for the oil changes and your poor UOA results are fallout from that. the sad truth is that the latter happens with a chilling frequency - and if i were a betting man my money would be on that explanation. i've seen syntec shear down to the low 12s V@100C and even the high 11s - but never all the way down to a 10.2. however 10.2 is perfectly normal for 5w-30 syntec.

unfortunately, the fact that there was a quart of 5w-40 syntec in the trunk when you bought the car, does not mean that there was any 5w-40 syntec in the engine.

don't panic. TDIs are extremely durable and often surprisingly forgiving. good luck! and i look forward to seeing your future UOA results.

XJCoupe: I tried an Elf 0w30 oil, and it didn't work for me at all. If it were my TDI, I'd be using Mobil Delvac 1 5w40 aka Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck. It can handle far more soot than your engine is producing, with very low wear numbers. You don't need a 505.01 or 506.01 or 507.00 in your engine, when a quality API CI4+ rated oil may work even better.

I agree with SUNRG: make this one a very short oil drain interval, then test at 5k miles to see how some even fresher oil is working out.

Original post #368.

A big thank you to those who responded to my results. I'm kicking myself for letting those UOAs sit on my desk for months...

wjdell said:

looks like you went from the frying pan into the fire - ouch - you have issues

change that boutique oil for some 507 - SLX III - run for 3 to 5 k and change it again test at 5k of the second fill of 507 - save your lunch money cause your cam is more than likely going to file for early retirement.

Thats a 2001 go for some real oil - Amsoil DEO - Mobil TDT or Delvac ESP - Schaeffers S9000 is ver affordable. SHell Rotella T. That is just a few of the dozen or more excellent oils your 2001 can use.

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Speaking of the cam, here's a photo taken when I swapped the timing belt shortly after buying the car in Jan. 2006.

SUNRG said:

XJCoupe - basically the syntec oil was in bad shape by 10k. it's viscosity had become very low for a 5w-40 (10.2 = lower end of the 30 weight range), it was no longer protecting the engine and wear metal concentrations had become high.

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Interesting. Which metals are out of line? Did things only improve slightly with the Elf oil? The lab suggested that the oil was fit for continued service for both samples.

if this were my beloved TDI, here's what i would do.

1. i would change the oil and filter immediately
2. drive 50 miles and change the oil and filter again
3. drive 20 miles and extract a baseline oil sample, send it to the lab and post the results to this thread
4. drive 5000 miles, extract an oil sample, send it to the lab and post the results to this thread

by comparing the baseline UOA result (mile 20 UOA) with the 5020 mile UOA result we will be able to clearly determine rates at which your engine is generating wear metals.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I will follow that plan, using Delvac 1 or Rotella.

when changing the oil, if possible, i would both drain from the drain plug and use an oil extractor to extract oil from the oil filter housing and the plumbing and oil cooler beneath the oil filter housing.

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I have a Pela extractor, and used it for both oil changes. For the first change I used the extractor only. For the second one (and for the future) I both drained and extracted.

if performance and / or fuel economy are at below normal levels, resolving the issues may positively impact your future UOA results and engine longeity.

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I will be very interested to see if fuel economy improves. It hasn't been stellar. And, of course, I want to see some good UOA results.

don't panic. TDIs are extremely durable and often surprisingly forgiving. good luck! and i look forward to seeing your future UOA results.

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I will be sorely vexed if I have to do major engine work on this car, but what's life without a few learning experiences? I should be getting some advance warning, at least, if that will be necessary before 300k miles.

The pic you provided does not look abnormal - do some cleaning - shorten OCI's and see if it cleans up. you may be ok - If it last only a 1/4 million mies many would say thats enough to get your moneys worth.