PUMP TIMING for Economy

gearjam

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Dec 22, 2005
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SE Pa
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2000 B5 Passat TDI conversion
If you could chose to set your pump timing more advanced or retarded which would give you better economy ?
 

compu_85

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La Conner, WA
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More advanced will yield better starts, and software which changes the timing (which is controlled by the computer) will yield better economy.

-Jason
 

FL2AK-tdi

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'01 Jetta GLS Sedan
compu_85 said:
More advanced will yield better starts, and software which changes the timing (which is controlled by the computer) will yield better economy.

-Jason
wait, WHAT software? I thought chip tuning was about balls to the walls power?
 

DieselDrink

Veteran Member
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Jan 20, 2006
Location
Etobicoke, ON, Canada
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2001 Golf TDI 1.9L
Question re timing:

I have my IP static pump timing advanced (you can see in VagCom) just underneath the upper part of the graph. The measuring block number is about 63 or something? Anyway, the IP is advanced (I'm not sure if I have that number right, but it is underneath the green line on upper part of graph).

But, I've heard about and wondered about Crankshaft to Camshaft timing? That this can also alter fuel econ. Can anybody tell me if you can see what this Crank to Cam timing is at in VagCom? Will this setting effect economy?
 

compu_85

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Tuning gives power by making the motor run more efficiently and removing emissions controls. What do you think advancing the timing does ;)
 

DieselDrink

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2001 Golf TDI 1.9L
If my IP timing is advanced that is good. I also have a tune.

But can I check how my crank to camshaft timing is set? Can it be altered for better fuel econ? If so, how is it altered, mechanically or inherent in the chip tune?
 

Bob_Fout

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FL2AK-tdi said:
wait, WHAT software? I thought chip tuning was about balls to the walls power?
The same changes that yield more power during load can yield better econ during steady-state.
 

whitedog

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DieselDrink said:
If my IP timing is advanced that is good. I also have a tune.

But can I check how my crank to camshaft timing is set? Can it be altered for better fuel econ? If so, how is it altered, mechanically or inherent in the chip tune?
It can only be changed by loosening the cam pully and turning the pully relative to the cam.

Since this is an interference engine, there will be a point where pistons and valves will meet. This story would end in tears.
 

FL2AK-tdi

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whitedog said:
This story would end in tears.
I already have too many of those.

But what sort of chip wpoould be reccomended for economy over power?

I recognize that they m ay do both but Ihave to stay off the pedal, right?
 

DieselDrink

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2001 Golf TDI 1.9L
whitedog said:
It can only be changed by loosening the cam pully and turning the pully relative to the cam.

Since this is an interference engine, there will be a point where pistons and valves will meet. This story would end in tears.
Yo Dog: Gotcha! Thanks.

Now just to clarify: when my last timing belt job was done, is there a way to tell if the cam to crank setting is optimal or not optimal? Or would this never have changed on my engine? There is no number that gives an indication of this setting in VagCom? Or must it be checked mechanically as you mention above?
 

Tsquare86

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Location
Milwaukee WI
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2015 Sportwagen TDI
So I'm not a TDI freak but I am an engineer who knows his stuff about diesel engines.

Advancing your injection timing so that more combustion occurs @ TDC will yield better thermal efficiency and higher MPG. From what I've read this is done on the ALH engine by adjusting the injection pump. (I have yet to do this since I just did the EGR delete and haven't gotten a MPG benchmark)

As for altering valve timing that's a different story. I don't think it's necessary since more variable valve timing systems are a result of the emissions standards that need to be met. But if you so chose to change your valve timing a simple way is to change the clearance on the valve stem. This will change the open duration of your valve (ie open earlier close later or open later close earlier). That'll change your valve timing, or you can adjust the cam shaft relative to the crank...

That's my .02
 

mrGutWrench

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whitedog said:
It can only be changed by loosening the cam pully and turning the pully relative to the cam.
__. There's some other adjustment. I have the info on my home computer but "Cage" wrote up something in "Basic Settings" (I think) that alters some ECM-based timing. Somebody did it on my '02 sedan at a GTG; that car did 57MPG average over 130K miles - most tanks for the last 60-70K miles were 60-62 MPG, *best ever* was 64 but that was only 450 miles (full to reading 5/8ths) and I don't trust it to be really accurate.

__. Sorry, I don't have a link to the reset procedure.
 

whitedog

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mrGutWrench said:
__. There's some other adjustment. I have the info on my home computer but "Cage" wrote up something in "Basic Settings" (I think) that alters some ECM-based timing. Somebody did it on my '02 sedan at a GTG; that car did 57MPG average over 130K miles - most tanks for the last 60-70K miles were 60-62 MPG, *best ever* was 64 but that was only 450 miles (full to reading 5/8ths) and I don't trust it to be really accurate.

__. Sorry, I don't have a link to the reset procedure.
The cam to crank relationship can only be changed mechanically. I think that you are thinking about the crank to pump timing.

DieselDrink:

The way to tell if the cam and crank are set up correctly in relation to each other is with the cam lock tool. Remove vacuum pump and valve cover, set crank at TDC #1 and the cam lock should go in. That's all there is to it. I guess if you want to advance the valve timing, you could install the cam lock, loosen the cam pulley, then turn the crank backwards a flywheel tooth or two.

I am betting that valve timing is partly a balance between economy, power and emissions. What changes as you change the valve timing, I don't know. I'm just a tractor mechanic.
 

DieselDrink

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Etobicoke, ON, Canada
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2001 Golf TDI 1.9L
Thank you for all of your input folks. I understand more now.

I was not sure that I wanted to change this, but just to understand if it may or may not be set up correctly the cam vs crank timing. I'm sure more than likely it is as the first TB was done by an experienced VW mechanic.

The timing in the ECU I have also read about on here, but not sure I want to change those ECU settings.
 

whitedog

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Was the experienced VW mechanic an experienced TDI mechanic?

The're is a difference.
 

mrGutWrench

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whitedog said:
The cam to crank relationship can only be changed mechanically. (snip)
__. True. This isn't cam timing, it's some electronic offset for the injection pump timing. Sorry I can't access my file but I will by tomorrow PM. It's also *not* the idle setting you do with moving the sprocket on the injection pump with VAG-Com like when the timing belt has been changed.

__. When Cage started this a few years ago, everyone said "be careful, that's a very critical setting" but a few of us have done it and nobody seems to have had any bad outcome.
 

Nico3d3

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Is it possible to do this "electronic offset" by changing parameters in vag-com, or you have to add a custom chip?
 

EARL97850

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Eastern Washington
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mrGutWrench said:
__. There's some other adjustment. I have the info on my home computer but "Cage" wrote up something in "Basic Settings" (I think) that alters some ECM-based timing. Somebody did it on my '02 sedan at a GTG; that car did 57MPG average over 130K miles - most tanks for the last 60-70K miles were 60-62 MPG, *best ever* was 64 but that was only 450 miles (full to reading 5/8ths) and I don't trust it to be really accurate.

__. Sorry, I don't have a link to the reset procedure.
I most definitely would be interested in those type of figures. My '02 only gets in the mid 40's with my auto trans.

Cya
 

FL2AK-tdi

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J.R. FEIK said:
I most definitely would be interested in those type of figures. My '02 only gets in the mid 40's with my auto trans.

Cya
That's probably all you're going to ever get. I've only heard of one guy here breaking 50 with an auto trans-and i'm not sure I believe it. My best ever is somethilike 48.5
 

Nico3d3

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Any other news about this mod? I would be really interested in increasing my already good fuel economy.
 

mrGutWrench

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Nico3d3 said:
Any other news about this mod? I would be really interested in increasing my already good fuel economy.
__. OK, here's the info that I found on here 5 years ago. It seemed to work on my '02 sedan. I'm going to do it on my '03 as soon as I get one of those tuits:

You go to "login" type "12233" then push "do it" then push "adaptation" then type in channel "4" each 1 degree of advance is achieved by increasing the number by 100. Full advance is 5 degrees increase. My car runs best so far at 3 degrees. After you increase the number push "test" then push "save" It is that easy!
No you can't change the operating timing mechanically unless you adjust it so far out of spec that the ecu can't correct it in which case you will get a CEL light on the dash. Yes 350 would give you 3.5 degrees of advance. Also, I am assuming you are starting at factory setting which is set midpoint of the window. You can adjust up or down five degrees.
__. We did this on my '02 sedan at a GTG maybe 4 years ago. We tried to increase the timing by 500 (as the process describes) but it kept tripping the CEL. SO we dropped it back by 50 - still CEL. Another 50 down, and no CEL so we then tried 25 up from that -- and the CEL came back on. So we settled on a number that would have been about 400 above the 5-digit factory setting. Good fuel economy, no CEL at that setting, and no other problems. Other people have reported that they could get the full 5 degrees and had no problems.

__. I'm not sure how this relates to the "check where on the line and fiddle with the pump sprocket" timing -- some other people have said that it's unrelated. It is also noted that this is pretty far from the standard timing so if you're trying this, you may be edging out to the areas where engine damage could result. All I can say is that it seemed to work for me for ~75K miles.
 
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koz

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Maine
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^^^^ Just a note on those settings...make sure the engine is fully hot (>85*C), or your numbers will be off. When I did mine, it was too cold and my timing was appearing more advanced than it was.
 

mrGutWrench

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koz said:
^^^^ Just a note on those settings...make sure the engine is fully hot (>85*C), or your numbers will be off. When I did mine, it was too cold and my timing was appearing more advanced than it was.
__. Thanks for that, Koz. That should be important (and it's something I didn't know).
 

TornadoRed

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mrGutWrench said:
__. OK, here's the info that I found on here 5 years ago. It seemed to work on my '02 sedan. I'm going to do it on my '03 as soon as I get one of those tuits:
Weren't there some potential or at least theoretical problems that could arise from doing this? Would you happen to recall what those were?
 

koz

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mrGutWrench said:
__. Thanks for that, Koz. That should be important (and it's something I didn't know).
Happy to contribute...besides, I learned it here ;)

TornadoRed said:
Weren't there some potential or at least theoretical problems that could arise from doing this? Would you happen to recall what those were?
From what I've read on the topic, it looks like there was a lot of concern in the beginning, but it seems like it was just what you described...theoretical. Here's the thread if anyone would like to read the blow by blow. And please remember, the thread started back in May of '03.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=204135&page=2
 

andreigbs

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Walworth Co., Wisconsin
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Also, since I didn't notice anyone mentioning it: you can change the pump IQ with VAG-com (increase it) at idle so there is less available when going pedal-to-the-medal. The range says anywhere from 3-5 mg/stroke but you could take it up higher, just not much higher than 7. You'll definitely feel the reduced power at WOT, but it means less fuel is being burned, right? Again, this is useful if you spend a lot of the time driving and not idling in traffic.

For that type of commute, a hybrid seems smarter.
 
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